https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=195.191.54.236&feedformat=atomDIYWiki - User contributions [en]2024-03-29T14:54:36ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.35.9https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Talk:Boiler_Evolution&diff=12941Talk:Boiler Evolution2010-02-27T23:18:22Z<p>195.191.54.236: accutane 40 mg</p>
<hr />
<div>Maybe would be nice to do as a graph showing where various developments branched off e.g. lightweight heat exchangers from cast iron, combis from heating-only etc?<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 13:57, 21 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
Anybody know when building regs changed obliging non-permanent pilot light designs?<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 16:31, 21 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
Somewhere before the 1/4/2005 upgrade to Part L. <br />
It must have been the inspriation for the retro fitting of electronic ignition to models like the Kingfisher and Mexico.<br />
--[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 20:20, 21 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
A '''long''' time before 1/4/2005! I'm guessing around 20 years ago but it'd be nice to know exactly when. <br />
<br />
Were there 'electronic' versions of the Mexico & Kingfisher? (My Ideal manuals are up in the attic and I cba to dig them out right now.)<br />
I haven't come across many Kingfishers but all the Mexicos I know are permanent-pilot-light types.<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 00:11, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
The ones I'm thinking about were only sold in the few years before 2005 and often sported an 'L' at the end of the model number. <br />
In many cases e.g. Profiles no change was needed so the Profile 80e became the Profile 80eL.<br />
<br />
They were intended to be direct replacements for the original dinosaur types but some lost the thermocouple. <br />
<br />
ISTR that a few of the back boilers suddenly got electronic ignition also.<br />
--[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 17:39, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
So wasn't there a change of regs that prompted the move from permanent pilot lights? Did it just happen sort of spontaneously? --[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 21:16, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
I think there must have been as the 'L' at the end probably referred to Part-L of the B.Regs. This change was prior to 2005 but not decades before,<br />
There may have been other changes much earlier to cause the introduction of fanned flues. However competition from continental designs and the advantages of more versatile flues might have brought this about without a regs change.<br />
--[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 06:09, 27 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
----<br />
<br />
I think the natural draught flue variants were always available it was just the proportion of installations that shifted away from using a chimney. --[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 20:22, 21 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
I guessed that RS must have come along later and that something like a Pott C70/21 must have been a purely OF design.<br />
Likewise Bermudas (were there ever RS versions?)<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 00:11, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
I've never seen a RS'd BBU the flueing would be nearly impossible. <br />
<br />
I was thinking of installation to outside walls like RS gas fires, though a BBU would obviously need a fairly deep fireplace against the wall to hide it in which would really make it only suitable for (then-) new-build.<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 21:16, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
The Pott. Netaheat was unique in using a heat sensing mecury vapour phial to detect the pilot light.<br />
The are many models which have a two stage ignition with a pilot and main gas valve. --[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 20:38, 21 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
Ahh yes: Wait ...... clunk! I still come across a few of those.<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 00:11, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
Solid kit.<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
I've looked for Potty's latest offering I could not find an installation PDF for the Promax but the specification looks like it a grown up condensing unit. It has low NOx and deep modulation >3:1. These strongly hint that it has a premix burner. A tight inlet pressure spec and no burner pressure spec also suggest this. <br />
... ... OK I found the manual it _is_ a one piece premixing unit but it is also _upfiring_ (another one to avoid fitting). <br />
<br />
--[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 17:39, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
I had an idea there was one called an HE 30. Baxi were also showing both a new generation and ye olde two-heat-exchanger offerings (with some pure weasel spin on why that was a good feature!) at a trade show at the local footy stadium last year. I didn't pay much attention as I was in a hurry to get to the Worcester and Vaillant stands :-)<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 21:16, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
I've checked Poxi's offerings and they have an odd mix of contemporary designs with side-blown combustion chambers, and some that look like the missing link between secondary heat exchanger types and single hx types: they have a single hx but it's a cuboid box with an upward-firing burner. <br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 22:13, 26 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
== Table of Boiler Info ==<br />
<br />
Thinking of doing a table of all* boilers and what features they have e.g.<br />
<br />
<br />
{| border=1; cellpadding=2<br />
! Manufacturer<br />
! Range<br />
! Models<br />
! Evolution<br />
! Config<br />
! Details<br />
|-<br />
| rowspan=9|Worcester / Worcester-Bosch<br>[http://www.bpindex.co.uk/manf.html?id=6549 range info]<br />
| i<br />
| 24, 28<br />
| SE, direct ignition<br />
| combi<br />
|<br />
* Alloy HX<br />
* combined HX, paddle flow switch<br />
* [http://napt.tlblearningpoint.com/dbdocs/worcester28irsfinstalguide.pdf_tcc_22-07-04.pdf manual]<br />
|-<br />
| CBi<br />
|<br />
* 9-14 CBi<br />
* 14-19 CBi<br />
* 19-24 CBi<br />
| SE (SEDBUK D), direct ignition<br />
| heating<br />
| <br />
* CI HX<br />
* [http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/index.php?fuseaction=site.viewFile&id=9875 manual]<br />
|-<br />
| Si II<br />
| 24, 28<br />
| SE (SEDBUK D)<br />
| combi<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| COMBI<br />
|<br />
* 240 COMBI<br />
* 280 COMBI<br />
| ?<br />
| combi<br />
| <br />
* cylindrical, non-plate water-water heat exchanger, diaphragm diverter<br />
* [http://www.midnight.karoo.net/WB240/ replacing 240 PRV] with pics<br />
|-<br />
| CDi<br />
|<br />
* 24CDi RSF<br />
* 28CDi RSF<br />
* 35CDi ?<br />
* 35CDi II RSF<br />
| SE, direct ignition<br />
| combi<br />
| <br />
* Alloy HX<br />
* PHE, diaphragm diverter<br />
* [http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/index.php?fuseaction=site.viewFile&id=215523 manual]<br />
|-<br />
| Highflow<br />
| 400 Electronic RSF<br />
| SE (SEDBUK D)<br />
| combi<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| SBi<br />
|<br />
* 15 SBi RSF<br />
* 24 SBi RSF<br />
| SE (SEDBUK D)<br />
| system<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| iJunior<br />
| 24, 28<br />
| SE, direct ignition<br />
| combi<br />
| <br />
* Alloy HX<br />
* combined HX, ? flow switch<br />
* [http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/index.php?fuseaction=site.viewFile&id=9935 manual]<br />
|-<br />
| Greenstar<br />
|<br />
* 30 HE PLUS<br />
* 35 HE PLUS<br />
* 40 HE PLUS<br />
| HE<br />
| combi<br />
| <br />
* <br />
|-<br />
| 26CDi XTRA RSF<br />
|<br />
| HE<br />
| combi<br />
| <br />
* SEDBUK B (secondary HX?)<br />
|-<br />
| mfr<br />
| range<br />
| model<br />
| evo<br />
| Htg/Sys/Combi<br />
| Details<br />
|}<br />
<br />
(*FSVO 'all')<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 22:13, 26 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
--this would be full time job <br />
--[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 06:09, 27 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
True but if one just covered the dozen or two most popular models it would be worth having.<br />
<br />
I'm also thinking we need something separate for current HE models from older models<br />
* for old models a sort of Observer's Guide To Boilers would be useful so when a poster (or customer) says "boiler" we can (help them to) identify it and its salient features<br />
* for current models a guide to what model has what features from the pov of choosing one, e.g. knowing that a Potterton Promax Combi or System HE plus is ''completely'' different from a Potterton Promax HE plus Heating model<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 14:34, 27 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
=== Current HE models ===<br />
{| border=1; cellpadding=2<br />
! Manufacturer<br />
! Range<br />
! Models<br />
! Config<br />
! SEDBUK<br />
! W * H * D<br />
! Details<br />
|-<br />
| rowspan=8|Ideal<br />
| Icos HE<br />
| ?<br />
| heating<br />
| A<br />
|<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
| Icos System HE<br />
| ?<br />
| system<br />
| A<br />
|<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| Isar HE<br />
| HE24, HE30, HE35<br />
| combi<br />
| A<br />
| 390*687*278<br />
| Very compact wall mounting boiler<br />
* Downward firing Si coated Ali heat exchanger.<br />
* DHW Preheat<br />
* DHW Temperature Control<br />
* Fully condensing in DHW and CH modes<br />
6m Flue extension available (max 3m on HE35)<br />
|-<br />
| Istor HE<br />
| ?<br />
| storage<br />
| A<br />
|<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| Mini HE<br />
| ?<br />
| combi<br />
| B<br />
|<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| Mexico HE<br />
| ?<br />
| ?<br />
| B<br />
|<br />
| <br />
* floor-standing<br />
|-<br />
| Classic HE<br />
| ?<br />
| heating<br />
| B<br />
|<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| Excel HE<br />
| ?<br />
| combi<br />
| B<br />
|<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| rowspan=3|Potterton<br />
| Gold<br />
| <br />
* Combi 24HE<br />
* Combi 28HE<br />
* Combi 33HE<br />
| combi<br />
| A<br />
| 450*780*345<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
| rowspan=2| Promax<br />
|<br />
* 15 HE<br />
* 24 HE<br />
| heating<br />
| A<br />
| 390*600*320<br />
| <br />
* upward-firing burner<br />
* sealed or vented<br />
* bypass not required - all TRV system OK<br />
* 15 HE "not suitable for fittng with thermal store"<br />
|-<br />
| FSB 30 HE<br />
| heating<br />
| A<br />
| 390*850*520<br />
| <br />
* floor-standing<br />
* upward-firing burner<br />
* built-in condensate pump<br />
* rear/side/top flue<br />
|-<br />
| rowspan=8|Worcester-Bosch<br />
| rowspan=4|Greenstar<br>''(i range using "WB3" heat exchanger<br>1-man lift c. 27kg)''<br />
| <br />
* 24i Junior<br />
* 28i Junior<br />
| combi<br />
| A<br />
| 400*700*330<br />
|<br />
* DHW pre-heat<br />
|-<br />
| <br />
* 12i System<br />
* 24i System<br />
| system<br />
| A<br />
| 400*700*330<br />
|<br />
* non-combi version of i Junior<br />
|-<br />
| <br />
* 12Ri<br />
* 15Ri<br />
* 18Ri<br />
* 24Ri<br />
| heating<br />
| A<br />
| 390*590*270<br />
|<br />
* non-system version of i System in smaller package<br />
|-<br />
|<br />
* 25Si<br />
* 30Si<br />
| combi<br />
| A<br />
| 400*700*330<br />
|<br />
* DHW pre-heat<br />
* DHW temperature control<br />
* ''(same as i Junior plus DHW temp control?)''<br />
|-<br />
| rowspan=4|Greenstar<br>''(CDi range using "WB5" heat exchanger<br>c. 49kg lift weight)''<br />
|<br />
* 25CDi<br />
* 30CDi<br />
* 35CDi<br />
* 40CDi<br />
| combi<br />
| A<br />
| 440*750*360<br />
|<br />
* claims "fully condensing" in CH and DHW modes<br />
* modulating circulating pump<br />
* DHW pre-heat<br />
* DHW temperature control<br />
* built-in filling link standard<br />
|-<br />
| <br />
* 30CDi System<br />
| system<br />
| A<br />
| 440*750*360<br />
|<br />
* system version of CDi combis?<br />
|-<br />
| <br />
* 30CDi conventional<br />
* 40CDi conventional<br />
| heating<br />
| A<br />
| 440*750*360<br />
|<br />
* heating versions of CDi combis?<br />
|-<br />
| Highflow 440<br />
| combi<br />
| A<br />
| 600*850*625<br />
|<br />
* floor-standing<br />
* side/top (rear?) flue<br />
* built-in condensate pump<br />
* built-in filling link standard<br />
|-<br />
| mfr<br />
| range<br />
| model<br />
| config<br />
| sedbuk<br />
| w * h * d<br />
| details<br />
|}<br />
<br />
==Early boilers==<br />
I very occasionally still see 1930s gas boilers in use. I guess this is what you mean by non-electric. The exhaust gas outlet, a hole in the top, is not connected to the flue on these. This is the big visual feature. Instead the (usually asbestos) flue sits above and separate to the boiler, with a short cone on it. I don't know if there is any no pilot light monitoring, I dont see how they'd do it, unless perhaps with a bimetal actuated valve?<br />
<br />
Which heading do these come under?<br />
[[User:NT|NT]] 09:48, 30 April 2007 (BST)<br />
<br />
Non-electric (aka Jurassic :-)).<br />
<br />
If you could get some pictures and/or any more detailed information/description I'd be interested (from an online museum point of view!) --[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 20:30, 30 April 2007 (BST)<br />
<br />
If I ever do I'll let you know, but its not in situations where I take a camera, so I'm doubtful.<br />
[[User:NT|NT]] 23:27, 30 April 2007 (BST)<br />
<br />
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<hr />
<div>== In General ==<br />
I'm aiming for an article that's succinct, informative and to the point.<br />
<br />
For the inexperienced DIYer I've tried to give an idea that there are unexpected dangers and you need to develop a certain attitude to DIY safely.<br />
<br />
Then I've started to assemble some subject-specific cut-to-the-chase guides and hints,<br />
<br />
== still need sections on ==<br />
<br />
* general power tool safety, specifics for <br />
** grinding wheels, <br />
** circular saws, <br />
** chain saws<br />
* safety wrt hot water and steam<br />
* chemicals<br />
* working at heights<br />
* lifting<br />
* excavations<br />
* ...<br />
* lifting (need pictures)<br />
* protective gear<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 10:52, 23 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
== Format ==<br />
<br />
I've used a single '=' as the first layer of the multilevel format here because using == does not give enough layers for the information presented. There is of course more info yet to come.<br />
[[User:NT|NT]] 11:58, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
If we need 5 levels of heading I think something should be split off into an article of its own.<br />
Can we stick to [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Editing mediawiki conventions] on heading levels? <br />
<blockquote><br />
'''Start with 2 equals signs not 1 because 1 creates H1 tags which should be reserved for page title.'''<br />
</blockquote><br />
I don't know why this is but the mediawiki designers probably know more about this wiki engine than we do!<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 08:31, 23 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
----<br />
== FOLLOWING STUFF MOVED OUT OF ARTICLE: ==<br />
<br />
I've moved the following out of the article where they're empty place-holders or need fleshing out (in which case they should go in the to-do list above) or where they don't explain the actual safety issues (e.g. vinegar) or where they aren't about an issue likely to occur in DIY working (e.g. the well-water one - maybe that could go in an article on water supply systems?)<br />
<br />
<blockquote><br />
<br />
=Excavation=<br />
<br />
=Power Tools=<br />
Drill<br />
Circular saw<br />
Chainsaw<br />
Holesaw<br />
Dremel<br />
<br />
=Water=<br />
==Hot Water==<br />
===Hot water tank temperature===<br />
===Showers===<br />
Scalding<br />
===Hot header tanks===<br />
May soften and collapse<br />
==Steam==<br />
==Pressurised water==<br />
(eg pressure washers)<br />
==Infection==<br />
Pigeon in tank etc<br />
<br />
Backfeeding & double check valves<br />
==Wells==<br />
Well water is prone to a wide range of safety issues, and should always be tested before being used as potable water. The need for remedial treatment before consumption is routine.<br />
<br />
<br />
====Patio Cleaner====<br />
<br />
===Toxins===<br />
====Oxalic acid====<br />
<br />
<br />
====Vinegar====<br />
Vinegar is entirely innocent until used, but once it gets onto copper (or any copper alloy) it becomes saturated with copper salts. Copper is actully an essential nutrient in miniscule quantities, but the amounts found in copper cleaning runoff are enough to cause serious problems. Even vinegar can land you in trouble.<br />
<br />
=Screws=<br />
Screwing causes injuries too. See [[Screws]]<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
----<br />
<blockquote><br />
<br />
==Method of lifting==<br />
==Load Limits==<br />
Observe the Safe Working Load limits stamped on the ratings plate on your butt, don't exceed your rated values. This is sometimes difficult to read due to its location, in which case your load rating can be assessed by a doctor or physical therapist. Ratings may vary widely between different models of DIYer, so it is not always wise to make assumptions.<br />
<br />
Exceeding the printed ratings may cause some of the zeros to fall off, leaving the DIYer unable to work. Although this damage can often be repaired by a body shop, the repair process is often long and costly, and in some cases the damage is permanent.<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
Nice one! Sadly, not really right for the article<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 08:31, 23 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
I dont know why youve removed a lot of information about safety, specifically water, chemicals, vinegar, screws, and load limits. it is what the article is about after all. Dont know whats unclear about vinegar either... if you want to reach some kind of concensus it would help to explain.<br />
[[User:NT|NT]] 17:42, 23 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
The bits about vinegar and screws didn't give any explanation how they were hazardous and what you should do about them (not have vinegar on your chips? stick to nails?). The Load Limits bit was facetious and amusing but not practically helpful - I replaced it with something about correct lifting techniques and protective clothing. <br />
<br />
As for the stuff about pigeons in tanks and well water, and support of hot water tanks: I felt it was the wrong sort of safety. I know that sounds daft but I'm not sure how to put it. There's safety in what you're doing, like using a chainsaw or raising a tonne weight or applying caustic paint stripper; and there's safety in how electrical and gas installations are designed and installed, and how water tanks are installed, and potable water supplies arranged. Seems to me they're different and belong in different places. As I mentioned at the start of thsi page I'm trying to make the article succinct - to encourage people to actually read it. If it wanders off into a treatise on well-water processing plant design I think it loses that.<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 21:05, 23 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
This seems a bit inacurate "Drain cleaning chemicals are usually strongs acids or alkalis which are extremely dangerous" given that there are so few deaths from them. Walking up the stairs kills far more people.<br />
[[User:NT|NT]] 17:45, 23 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
Depends what you mean by "dangerous" I suppose. By the same measure nitroglycerine isn't "extremenly dangerous". Far more people walk up & down stairs than handle conc. H2S04 and NaOH: if the same numbers did both activities just as often I think there'd be more casualties from the chemicals.<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 21:05, 23 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
<br />
Re removal etc...<br />
<br />
"The bits about vinegar and screws didn't give any explanation how they were hazardous and what you should do about them (not have vinegar on your chips? stick to nails?)."<br />
<br />
If you left it there any info you thought was missing could be added. If you remove anything you dont think perfect we're wasting our time. If each of us does that there will be nothing left. By all means remove what is by all verifiable accounts invalid and incorrect, as I've done twice, but removing developing valid input is not going to help.<br />
<br />
<blockquote><br />
OK, I didn't ''delete'' it, I moved it here, with a suggestion that the actual hazards should be identified if it's going to be in an article on safety. The text was: <br />
<blockquote><br />
''"Vinegar is entirely innocent until used, but once it gets onto copper (or any copper alloy) it becomes saturated with copper salts. Copper is actully an essential nutrient in miniscule quantities, but the amounts found in copper cleaning runoff are enough to cause serious problems. Even vinegar can land you in trouble."'' <br />
</blockquote><br />
What are the ''"serious problems"''? What ''"trouble"'' can vinegar land you in? I'd really like to know!. (FWIW I've recently cleaned brass - a copper alloy - with vinegar and I'm still here!) --[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 14:25, 24 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
<br />
" The Load Limits bit was facetious and amusing but not practically helpful"<br />
<br />
I thought knowing one's personal load limits was a key component in lifting safety. Or do you think all diyers are in perfect health and equally strong? <br />
<br />
<blockquote> Is it? I don't know mine but I do a fair amount of lifting and shifting and have managed to stay injury-free. I do have some idea when I look at a boiler spec that about 25kg is a one-person lift and I can carry it up a ladder and hang it on a wall, but I can get an old cast-iron boiler up off the ground and into the back of the van and that's maybe twice that weight. I think safe lifting is more down to bending right and feeling what's OK. <br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 14:25, 24 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
DIYers are not the same as professional builders in this respect, and a great toll of damage is done to people every year by folk not knowing and respecting their limits.<br />
<br />
People's lives are too often torn apart when they can no longer work or get around properly. DIY should be done safely, not ignorantly and self destructively. I cant see any possible valid basis for considering this not practically helpful.<br />
<br />
As for humour, dry boring safety advice is much more likely to be read through, thought about and remembered when framed in a humorous way.<br />
<br />
<blockquote><br />
My point was that the jokey piece was amusing but ''not'' practically helpful. If I have a ratings plate stamped on my butt my doctor has never mentioned it and I doubt a "therapist" would be any better placed to do so! Even if I did how would I use that figure? I daresay there's some science that a trained something-or-other can do to assess whether a given person can safely lift a particular weight, size and shape of object through a given path but it's bound to be different for different shapes and sizes and where you're lifting from and to etc as well as just the weight. And even then there's also the factor of whether your muscles are warmed up or stiff - or why would weight lifters bother limbering up before a lift? I certainly don't have the expertise to work something out mathematically (do you?). From a practical POV it seems to me that if you're lifting ''correctly'' you're just going to find you simply ''can't'' lift beyond your capacity than to injure yourself.<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 14:25, 24 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
"- I replaced it with something about correct lifting techniques and protective clothing."<br />
<br />
a good and needed addition, but removing the above clearly removes an important consideration. Many injuries occur from people lifting more weight than they are really able, and the lone diyer without full professional kit, written safety guidance, or any onsite safety expert is especially vulnerable to this. Vulnerable to the extent of 200,000 injuries per year in fact. Personally I'd like to se a few fewer people destroy their lives.<br />
<br />
<blockquote><br />
BTW where does the 200,000 figure come from? Is that 200,000 DIYers injuring themselves lifting beyond their capacity every year?<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 14:25, 24 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
"As for the stuff about pigeons in tanks and well water, and support of hot water tanks: I felt it was the wrong sort of safety. I know that sounds daft but I'm not sure how to put it. There's safety in what you're doing, like using a chainsaw or raising a tonne weight or applying caustic paint stripper; and there's safety in how electrical and gas installations are designed and installed, and how water tanks are installed, and potable water supplies arranged. Seems to me they're different and belong in different places. As I mentioned at the start of thsi page I'm trying to make the article succinct - to encourage people to actually read it."<br />
<br />
The title is safety, so it covers safety. Lots of people after you and me will add safety relevant info here of all kinds. Safety issues exist in every area of diy.<br />
<br />
If you want an article that covers a much more restricted amount of ground, which is a fine idea, then thinking of an appropriate article title would enable it to do just this. Maybe something like 'Key safety advice' 'Biggest safety issues' 'Most important safety points' 'Read me first' 'Danger: DIY' or something.<br />
<br />
Or maybe we could have safety as a category, and the main safety article has links to many other safety articles, the first of which would be a short one addressing the prime issues.<br />
<br />
<blockquote><br />
Safety ''is'' a category. I take your point about the scope of this particular article: I think that could be stated at the outset, pointing the reader in the direction of appropriate material relevant to safety in installations. I don't think the content of the current 'safety' article should be moved into a "safety in doing things" type of article - at least not just now - because you'd end up with a rather short main article containing just a few links which would add another level of link-following to get to ''any'' useful info. From personal experience (and I'm sure I've seen a web usability study somewhere though I can't find it right now) having to hop multiple links to get anywhere useful is a PITA. --[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 14:25, 24 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
"If it wanders off into a treatise on well-water processing plant design I think it loses that."<br />
<br />
No such was discussed. Sarcasm loses the point.<br />
<br />
<blockquote><br />
Sorry if it came across as sarcasm. Though I don't see why we shouldn't have a treatise on well-water processing plant design is someone has the expertise to write one, just trying to keep the main safety article succinct. --[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 14:25, 24 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
<br />
Removing valid safety information from the safety article is not constructive.<br />
[[User:NT|NT]] 08:32, 24 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
Re deletion, I'm quite sure we both know nothing is deleted from wiki, as wiki keeps copies of every version, it is only deleted from the current version of the article page.<br />
<br />
I note you removed relevant info on back injuries, which injure and disable a large number every year, while adding a section on electicity, which during diy activity kills and disables single figures per year.<br />
<br />
Life is too short.<br />
[[User:NT|NT]] 20:33, 2 March 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
<br />
What was the '''relevant info''' on back injuries I removed - you mean the bit about "Safe Working Load limits stamped on the ratings plate on your butt"? Do you find that to be useful info then? By all means put it back in if you do, but please could you add a guide or example of how to apply it because I - as a reader and DIYer - can't see how I would use it. (Whereas I can - and do - use the guidance to lifting in the text and illustration I put in, and I do recognise that it's an issue that needs to be addressed.) <br />
<br />
As for there being few casualties of accidents involving electricity: how many incidents involving chlorine evolved from mixing bog cleaners are there? However since the consequences of such incidents are so severe it seems worth covering them.<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 21:05, 2 March 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
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<hr />
<div>Plasterboard nails have not got a flat head... they are shaped much the same as the screws. --[[User:John Rumm|John Rumm]] 22:26, 7 May 2009 (BST)<br />
<br />
There's more than one type. The ones screwfix sell are neither flat headed nor like drywall screws. And they suck royally.<br />
[[User:NT|NT]] 11:04, 8 May 2009 (BST)<br />
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ACK - Corrected the article with thanks :) [[User:TSoutherwood 21:15 10 May 2009]]<br />
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<hr />
<div>I can see why you are trying this method to weed out the spammers (based on the discussion about this that you were having on another page). Hopefully it might work, at least until you get a more durable solution.<br />
<br />
The only downside that I can see, besides the extra work involved both for the Admin & the applicant, is that people might be reluctant to post their email address in the open, in a public forum. Personally, I wouldn't do it myself - because either human spammers or web-crawling bots would eventually find it. Also, they might receive a fraudulent email from someone pretending to be from this website.<br />
<br />
A possible measure to counter-act this problem might be to advise people to set up their own temporary webmail address specifically for this purpose. You could give suggestions (eg. Gmail or something like Mytrashmail).<br />
<br />
Alternatively, admin could set up its own email account especially for DIY Wiki account requests. You may need to create a filter for the inevitable spam you would get. This could remove all email you receive except that which is in the correct format of Real Name, Username, Email Address, or which doesn't include a specific keyword you tell the applicant to put in their subject line.<br />
<br />
Just some suggestions ;) -Ax --[[User:Wwikidiyfaqq1|Wwikidiyfaqq1]] --[[User:Wwikidiyfaqq1|Wwikidiyfaqq1]] 15:13, 18 June 2009 (BST)<br />
<br />
Thanks for the input. The situation as it is now is obviously not ideal - but the level of fake registered users and their spam was becoming a pain. I suspect a little more explanation may help mitigate some of the problems you raise. For example putting the email in a non machine usable form[1]. It is also worth noting that the changes to the account requests article gets flagged to me - so the actual account request will not be up for more than a few hours before the account gets created and the request deleted. Regular users of the newsgroup are also able to post requests there or directly to me, John S / YAPH or NT anyway. I will probably also setup a request address and document that.<br />
<br />
[1] experiences suggest that obfuscated addresses rarely attract spam - 99% of it is automated harvesting that does not bother to render the HTML and just searches the plain text for "mailto:" format links. <br />
<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Rumm|John Rumm]] 16:16, 18 June 2009 (BST)<br />
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<hr />
<div>Created article<br />
<br />
Need better pictures and to expand text.<br />
<br />
[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 04:31, 16 December 2006 (GMT)<br />
<br />
== Category DHW or domestic hot water ==<br />
<br />
Maybe we should decide on one name for this category. The category 'Domestic Hot Water Systems' is already in use in several other articles, DHW is not. DHW will be found using the search box, so I'm not sure we need DHW as a category.<br />
<br />
Agreed, but how does one delete a category? I've removed the Category: tag from the one article that referrred to it, and deleted the contents from the category page itself. That seems to have done it (I hope)<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 22:39, 1 January 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
== Introductory section ==<br />
Thanks for the changes NT. I had not considered how this article might appear taken in isolation: it was originally part of my DHW systems article but I split it into its own article since it was so big. I can see that, taken in isolation, it needs a bit of introduction to a user coming straight to it to set the context in which they may be interested in stores & banks.<br />
<br />
Since several of the advantages you list are already covered in the main [[Domestic Hot Water Systems|DHW]] article I have referred the reader to that article instead of trying to re-state things in this one.<br />
<br />
I left out the bits on them being more efficient, having faster recovery etc since these are not true of all such systems and anyway are discussed in detail in the article itself. I'm assuming that if someone wants to understand the technology they'll read the articles in full to do so. If they just want factoids such as 'more efficient' without any real comprehension I'm sure there are plenty of places they can go for them :-)<br />
<br />
I also took out the glossary as I couldn't see its purpose in this article. If the reader reads the article they'll find these terms described as they are used or used with links to further information (in the hypertext way). I can see that someone may come to the wiki wanting to know what, say, the term 'plate heat exchanger' or 'primary water' is. The search function should give them some answers, including uses of these terms in other articles (such as conbi boilers and central heating systems) which they wouldn't get from a glossary in this article alone.<br />
<br />
I can see that a glossary at a higher level (maybe in the main DHW article or possibly the main Heating or even Plumbing sections, or maybe at the top level for the wiki overall) could be useful if someone could put together - and continue to maintain - a comprehensive one. However it seems like an enormous amount of extra work when we've enough to do building the main corpus of the wiki, and if it's not comprehensive I wonder if it's worth doing at all?<br />
<br />
By the way I also changed the heading level of your 'How They Work' section heading to 2 (2 = signs either side). Mediawiki documentation recommends not using level 1 (1 = sign) as that is reserved for the article heading itself.<br />
<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 15:10, 10 January 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
<br />
Hi John. <br />
<br />
I was really surprised to see you thought the article-specific mini glossary a bad idea. I don't have the sort of knowledge of plumbing as many here, and reading thru this article the first thing that stood out clearly was the need for a glossary. There are many terms used in this one that a lot of diyers wont know, and really they won't make head or tail out of it all if the terms arent explained first. I found it hard enough knowing the terms, and having no glossary just makes understanding this article 10x harder for anyone not especially familiar with DHW systems.<br />
<br />
I know what the terms mean, but this is only because I have an interest in almost all things diy and have followed many a thread on it on ukdiy. Most readers will be new to most of this.<br />
<br />
Also there are terms eg for the 2 sets of water that are not universal terms, and thus need definining for this article. <br />
<br />
Saying that these meanings are all mentioned somewhere in the article is not much help because when reading a section one has nothing to refer to to remind oneself what is what. The definitions may be in there somewhere but if I have to reread it all to find a definition every time I want to understand each paragraph its going to be a nightmare trying to understand it all, and all but the masochistic will quickly give up.<br />
<br />
Also I used the primary water definition to explain from the start that the cylinder water was the same circuit as the boiler.<br />
<br />
You're an expert on this. Try to put yourself in the shoes of someone that knows diddly, and this article is almost incomprehensible, simply because it introduces so many concepts and jargons in one bite. Human memory is neither perfect nor instant, and explaining the terms once somewhere in the article just doesnt work. To follow it all one has to have a clear plain list of what they mean that one can refer to each time... otherwise its only of use to those that already understand a lot about the subject.<br />
<br />
Really I think the glossary is key for anyone not already familiar with the subject. Its simply not accessible to 95% of readers otherwise, imho.<br />
<br />
<br />
"If they just want factoids such as 'more efficient' without any real comprehension I'm sure there are plenty of places they can go for them :-)"<br />
<br />
Well, I think thats important too. :) As a reader that (lets pretend a minute) doesnt know what is here nor what I want, all I know is I need a new hot water system, I really have no idea if this article is relevant or of interest to me. And I've not got all month to read eveything on the site. I need to know right off the bat whether this article is worth me reading, and a plain clear list of advantages at the start is exactly what I need for that. No list, no clue whether its all of any relevance. No clue, and a tough going article, and I'm gone, no incentive or willingness to read it.<br />
<br />
Re your point that some advantages dont always apply, that can be dealt with vy splitting the advantages list into 2, advantages first, then optional advantages depending on design 2nd.<br />
<br />
For anyone that doesnt know the subject this article is impossibly tough reading, you need to give them a reason to read it or it'll just stay on the shelf unused, like most scholarly tomes.<br />
<br />
The hardest thing is to put expertise and accessibility together, perhaps because experts dont realise how unclued the rest of the world is. But it can be done.<br />
[[User:NT|NT]] 19:40, 10 January 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
<br />
OK thanks for the feedback.<br />
<br />
Maybe it would help to point out the raison d'etre of this article. So often I've talked to clients about the various choices available to them in hot water systems and after a few minutes I notice their eyes glaze over! It's obviously all too much to take in in one chunk, so I thought I'd better write it up. That's what this attempts to be. So far I've more-or-less brain-dumped the more relevant bits of what I know, so I can understand that it's perhaps a bit much to take in and I really appreciate feedback on how it comes across and how it can be immproved. (I haven't let any of my customers loose on it yet - we'll have to see how they find it too!)<br />
<br />
Regarding your point about the mini-glossary: I prefer the hypertext style (as exampled by wikipedia) of linking non-obvious terms to explanations of their meanings, whether that's links to other places in the same text, other articles in this wiki, or pages elsewhere on the web. I haven't done a lot of that so far, partly because few other resources exist to link to yet and I don't want to have the text littered with [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Red_link red links], but mostly because I haven't got A Round Tuit :-)<br />
<br />
About the executive summary ("a plain clear list of advantages at the start") I think that's a good point, and I've changed the opening paragraph to try to convey that enough to lead the reader on.<br />
<br />
As for the "tough reading ...scholarly tome" aspect, I hope that by explaining the subject clearly it won't be any tougher than it needs to. If it is, that's a failing of my writing which no amount of gloss(ary)ing over will remedy. But I admit I do have a prejudice that DIYers are intelligent and persevering, too! Certainly some of the most worthwhile articles I've come across on the group have been those explaining quite technical subjects in a fair amount of detail.<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 01:26, 11 January 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
I've made a lot of changes to try to improve readability - see diff for them.<br />
In particular I've removed this bit from the 'Recovery' section since it's partly about condensing boilers (and inaccurate in places) and getting into niches which need to be covered in more appropriate extensions of this article.<br />
<br />
excised section follows:<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="2"<br />
|-<br />
|<br />
The temperature of the water returning to a condensing boiler is absolutely critical to whether it can condense or not. Above 56 degrees, condensation is IMPOSSIBLE (Law of Physics - Dewpoint). Different heatstores and heatbanks have the primary Flow and Return connections (to the boiler) in various positions on the store cylinder to achieve different objectives. For example, the boiler Return may be mounted 'high' to allow for the connection of a second (lower temperature) Flow / Return pair lower down for connection to a solar panel system. What benefits the solar system (stratification of the store allowing a useful temperature difference between the solar Flow and the area of the store it's supposed to heat), may also raise the average temperature of the boiler Return above 56C degrees. This will impact the boiler's efficiency.<br />
<br />
In some cases, the effective working temperature of the store may be so high (approaching 80C degrees) that the Return will remain above 56C degrees all the time, so that there is no efficiency gain from using a condensing boiler.<br />
<br />
One design of heatbank includes TWO boiler Return tappings on the cylinder: one part-way down, the other at the bottom. These are linked by a thermostatic mixing valve set slightly below 56 degrees, so that the boiler gets its Return water at optimum temperature most of the time. This allows a condensing, modulating boiler to reduce it's heat output to match what the store actually needs and to remain in condensing mode for as long as possible. <br />
|}<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 15:26, 12 January 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
:This...''In some cases, the effective working temperature of the store may be so high (approaching 80C degrees) that the Return will remain above 56C degrees all the time, so that there is no efficiency gain from using a condensing boiler.''<br />
<br />
Even when set to 80C running temperature condensing boilers condense 80% of reheat time. <br />
<br />
[[User:79.65.91.94|79.65.91.94]] 15:34, 29 April 2009 (BST)<br />
<br />
:This...<br />
<br />
:''Thermal stores and heat banks provide hot water at mains pressure, giving excellent performance from showers and spray mixer taps. They don't require bulky tanks in the attic, which can free up space.'' <br />
<br />
:''"Unvented" (e.g. "Megaflo") systems also give these benefits but their installation has to be notified under Building Regulations and they must be serviced annually for safety, so thermal stores are particularly attractive for DIY-ers.''<br />
<br />
:'''Thermal store/heat banks are not equivallents to DHW only Megaflows.''' A DHW only thermal store or heat bank is. An integrated CH/DHW thermal store heat bank is very differnt and offers much, much more. This must be noted.<br />
<br />
[[User:79.65.91.94|79.65.91.94]] 15:47, 29 April 2009 (BST)<br />
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<hr />
<div>Maybe would be nice to do as a graph showing where various developments branched off e.g. lightweight heat exchangers from cast iron, combis from heating-only etc?<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 13:57, 21 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
Anybody know when building regs changed obliging non-permanent pilot light designs?<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 16:31, 21 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
Somewhere before the 1/4/2005 upgrade to Part L. <br />
It must have been the inspriation for the retro fitting of electronic ignition to models like the Kingfisher and Mexico.<br />
--[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 20:20, 21 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
A '''long''' time before 1/4/2005! I'm guessing around 20 years ago but it'd be nice to know exactly when. <br />
<br />
Were there 'electronic' versions of the Mexico & Kingfisher? (My Ideal manuals are up in the attic and I cba to dig them out right now.)<br />
I haven't come across many Kingfishers but all the Mexicos I know are permanent-pilot-light types.<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 00:11, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
The ones I'm thinking about were only sold in the few years before 2005 and often sported an 'L' at the end of the model number. <br />
In many cases e.g. Profiles no change was needed so the Profile 80e became the Profile 80eL.<br />
<br />
They were intended to be direct replacements for the original dinosaur types but some lost the thermocouple. <br />
<br />
ISTR that a few of the back boilers suddenly got electronic ignition also.<br />
--[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 17:39, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
So wasn't there a change of regs that prompted the move from permanent pilot lights? Did it just happen sort of spontaneously? --[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 21:16, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
I think there must have been as the 'L' at the end probably referred to Part-L of the B.Regs. This change was prior to 2005 but not decades before,<br />
There may have been other changes much earlier to cause the introduction of fanned flues. However competition from continental designs and the advantages of more versatile flues might have brought this about without a regs change.<br />
--[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 06:09, 27 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
----<br />
<br />
I think the natural draught flue variants were always available it was just the proportion of installations that shifted away from using a chimney. --[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 20:22, 21 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
I guessed that RS must have come along later and that something like a Pott C70/21 must have been a purely OF design.<br />
Likewise Bermudas (were there ever RS versions?)<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 00:11, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
I've never seen a RS'd BBU the flueing would be nearly impossible. <br />
<br />
I was thinking of installation to outside walls like RS gas fires, though a BBU would obviously need a fairly deep fireplace against the wall to hide it in which would really make it only suitable for (then-) new-build.<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 21:16, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
The Pott. Netaheat was unique in using a heat sensing mecury vapour phial to detect the pilot light.<br />
The are many models which have a two stage ignition with a pilot and main gas valve. --[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 20:38, 21 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
Ahh yes: Wait ...... clunk! I still come across a few of those.<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 00:11, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
Solid kit.<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
I've looked for Potty's latest offering I could not find an installation PDF for the Promax but the specification looks like it a grown up condensing unit. It has low NOx and deep modulation >3:1. These strongly hint that it has a premix burner. A tight inlet pressure spec and no burner pressure spec also suggest this. <br />
... ... OK I found the manual it _is_ a one piece premixing unit but it is also _upfiring_ (another one to avoid fitting). <br />
<br />
--[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 17:39, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
I had an idea there was one called an HE 30. Baxi were also showing both a new generation and ye olde two-heat-exchanger offerings (with some pure weasel spin on why that was a good feature!) at a trade show at the local footy stadium last year. I didn't pay much attention as I was in a hurry to get to the Worcester and Vaillant stands :-)<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 21:16, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
I've checked Poxi's offerings and they have an odd mix of contemporary designs with side-blown combustion chambers, and some that look like the missing link between secondary heat exchanger types and single hx types: they have a single hx but it's a cuboid box with an upward-firing burner. <br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 22:13, 26 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
== Table of Boiler Info ==<br />
<br />
Thinking of doing a table of all* boilers and what features they have e.g.<br />
<br />
<br />
{| border=1; cellpadding=2<br />
! Manufacturer<br />
! Range<br />
! Models<br />
! Evolution<br />
! Config<br />
! Details<br />
|-<br />
| rowspan=9|Worcester / Worcester-Bosch<br>[http://www.bpindex.co.uk/manf.html?id=6549 range info]<br />
| i<br />
| 24, 28<br />
| SE, direct ignition<br />
| combi<br />
|<br />
* Alloy HX<br />
* combined HX, paddle flow switch<br />
* [http://napt.tlblearningpoint.com/dbdocs/worcester28irsfinstalguide.pdf_tcc_22-07-04.pdf manual]<br />
|-<br />
| CBi<br />
|<br />
* 9-14 CBi<br />
* 14-19 CBi<br />
* 19-24 CBi<br />
| SE (SEDBUK D), direct ignition<br />
| heating<br />
| <br />
* CI HX<br />
* [http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/index.php?fuseaction=site.viewFile&id=9875 manual]<br />
|-<br />
| Si II<br />
| 24, 28<br />
| SE (SEDBUK D)<br />
| combi<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| COMBI<br />
|<br />
* 240 COMBI<br />
* 280 COMBI<br />
| ?<br />
| combi<br />
| <br />
* cylindrical, non-plate water-water heat exchanger, diaphragm diverter<br />
* [http://www.midnight.karoo.net/WB240/ replacing 240 PRV] with pics<br />
|-<br />
| CDi<br />
|<br />
* 24CDi RSF<br />
* 28CDi RSF<br />
* 35CDi ?<br />
* 35CDi II RSF<br />
| SE, direct ignition<br />
| combi<br />
| <br />
* Alloy HX<br />
* PHE, diaphragm diverter<br />
* [http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/index.php?fuseaction=site.viewFile&id=215523 manual]<br />
|-<br />
| Highflow<br />
| 400 Electronic RSF<br />
| SE (SEDBUK D)<br />
| combi<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| SBi<br />
|<br />
* 15 SBi RSF<br />
* 24 SBi RSF<br />
| SE (SEDBUK D)<br />
| system<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| iJunior<br />
| 24, 28<br />
| SE, direct ignition<br />
| combi<br />
| <br />
* Alloy HX<br />
* combined HX, ? flow switch<br />
* [http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/index.php?fuseaction=site.viewFile&id=9935 manual]<br />
|-<br />
| Greenstar<br />
|<br />
* 30 HE PLUS<br />
* 35 HE PLUS<br />
* 40 HE PLUS<br />
| HE<br />
| combi<br />
| <br />
* <br />
|-<br />
| 26CDi XTRA RSF<br />
|<br />
| HE<br />
| combi<br />
| <br />
* SEDBUK B (secondary HX?)<br />
|-<br />
| mfr<br />
| range<br />
| model<br />
| evo<br />
| Htg/Sys/Combi<br />
| Details<br />
|}<br />
<br />
(*FSVO 'all')<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 22:13, 26 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
--this would be full time job <br />
--[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 06:09, 27 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
True but if one just covered the dozen or two most popular models it would be worth having.<br />
<br />
I'm also thinking we need something separate for current HE models from older models<br />
* for old models a sort of Observer's Guide To Boilers would be useful so when a poster (or customer) says "boiler" we can (help them to) identify it and its salient features<br />
* for current models a guide to what model has what features from the pov of choosing one, e.g. knowing that a Potterton Promax Combi or System HE plus is ''completely'' different from a Potterton Promax HE plus Heating model<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 14:34, 27 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
=== Current HE models ===<br />
{| border=1; cellpadding=2<br />
! Manufacturer<br />
! Range<br />
! Models<br />
! Config<br />
! SEDBUK<br />
! W * H * D<br />
! Details<br />
|-<br />
| rowspan=8|Ideal<br />
| Icos HE<br />
| ?<br />
| heating<br />
| A<br />
|<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
| Icos System HE<br />
| ?<br />
| system<br />
| A<br />
|<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| Isar HE<br />
| HE24, HE30, HE35<br />
| combi<br />
| A<br />
| 390*687*278<br />
| Very compact wall mounting boiler<br />
* Downward firing Si coated Ali heat exchanger.<br />
* DHW Preheat<br />
* DHW Temperature Control<br />
* Fully condensing in DHW and CH modes<br />
6m Flue extension available (max 3m on HE35)<br />
|-<br />
| Istor HE<br />
| ?<br />
| storage<br />
| A<br />
|<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| Mini HE<br />
| ?<br />
| combi<br />
| B<br />
|<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| Mexico HE<br />
| ?<br />
| ?<br />
| B<br />
|<br />
| <br />
* floor-standing<br />
|-<br />
| Classic HE<br />
| ?<br />
| heating<br />
| B<br />
|<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| Excel HE<br />
| ?<br />
| combi<br />
| B<br />
|<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| rowspan=3|Potterton<br />
| Gold<br />
| <br />
* Combi 24HE<br />
* Combi 28HE<br />
* Combi 33HE<br />
| combi<br />
| A<br />
| 450*780*345<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
| rowspan=2| Promax<br />
|<br />
* 15 HE<br />
* 24 HE<br />
| heating<br />
| A<br />
| 390*600*320<br />
| <br />
* upward-firing burner<br />
* sealed or vented<br />
* bypass not required - all TRV system OK<br />
* 15 HE "not suitable for fittng with thermal store"<br />
|-<br />
| FSB 30 HE<br />
| heating<br />
| A<br />
| 390*850*520<br />
| <br />
* floor-standing<br />
* upward-firing burner<br />
* built-in condensate pump<br />
* rear/side/top flue<br />
|-<br />
| rowspan=8|Worcester-Bosch<br />
| rowspan=4|Greenstar<br>''(i range using "WB3" heat exchanger<br>1-man lift c. 27kg)''<br />
| <br />
* 24i Junior<br />
* 28i Junior<br />
| combi<br />
| A<br />
| 400*700*330<br />
|<br />
* DHW pre-heat<br />
|-<br />
| <br />
* 12i System<br />
* 24i System<br />
| system<br />
| A<br />
| 400*700*330<br />
|<br />
* non-combi version of i Junior<br />
|-<br />
| <br />
* 12Ri<br />
* 15Ri<br />
* 18Ri<br />
* 24Ri<br />
| heating<br />
| A<br />
| 390*590*270<br />
|<br />
* non-system version of i System in smaller package<br />
|-<br />
|<br />
* 25Si<br />
* 30Si<br />
| combi<br />
| A<br />
| 400*700*330<br />
|<br />
* DHW pre-heat<br />
* DHW temperature control<br />
* ''(same as i Junior plus DHW temp control?)''<br />
|-<br />
| rowspan=4|Greenstar<br>''(CDi range using "WB5" heat exchanger<br>c. 49kg lift weight)''<br />
|<br />
* 25CDi<br />
* 30CDi<br />
* 35CDi<br />
* 40CDi<br />
| combi<br />
| A<br />
| 440*750*360<br />
|<br />
* claims "fully condensing" in CH and DHW modes<br />
* modulating circulating pump<br />
* DHW pre-heat<br />
* DHW temperature control<br />
* built-in filling link standard<br />
|-<br />
| <br />
* 30CDi System<br />
| system<br />
| A<br />
| 440*750*360<br />
|<br />
* system version of CDi combis?<br />
|-<br />
| <br />
* 30CDi conventional<br />
* 40CDi conventional<br />
| heating<br />
| A<br />
| 440*750*360<br />
|<br />
* heating versions of CDi combis?<br />
|-<br />
| Highflow 440<br />
| combi<br />
| A<br />
| 600*850*625<br />
|<br />
* floor-standing<br />
* side/top (rear?) flue<br />
* built-in condensate pump<br />
* built-in filling link standard<br />
|-<br />
| mfr<br />
| range<br />
| model<br />
| config<br />
| sedbuk<br />
| w * h * d<br />
| details<br />
|}<br />
<br />
==Early boilers==<br />
I very occasionally still see 1930s gas boilers in use. I guess this is what you mean by non-electric. The exhaust gas outlet, a hole in the top, is not connected to the flue on these. This is the big visual feature. Instead the (usually asbestos) flue sits above and separate to the boiler, with a short cone on it. I don't know if there is any no pilot light monitoring, I dont see how they'd do it, unless perhaps with a bimetal actuated valve?<br />
<br />
Which heading do these come under?<br />
[[User:NT|NT]] 09:48, 30 April 2007 (BST)<br />
<br />
Non-electric (aka Jurassic :-)).<br />
<br />
If you could get some pictures and/or any more detailed information/description I'd be interested (from an online museum point of view!) --[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 20:30, 30 April 2007 (BST)<br />
<br />
If I ever do I'll let you know, but its not in situations where I take a camera, so I'm doubtful.<br />
[[User:NT|NT]] 23:27, 30 April 2007 (BST)<br />
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<hr />
<div>The edit from 204.79.90.30 regarding hinge rebates:<br />
<br />
"( a faster and more professional approach to produce the hinge rebates would be to cut as you would a mortice if you are proficient in woodworking)."<br />
<br />
Needs a good deal of extra information if it is to make any sense. As it currently stands it has the tone of "having a dig" while giving no clue as to what it means. <br />
<br />
i.e: many "professionals" would cut a small mortice with a chisel, however a they may use a morticer or a mortice set in a pillar drill, or a router etc. <br />
<br />
I propose to remove the comment for the moment, and add some extra detail on alternative rebate approaches.<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Rumm|John Rumm]] 18:30, 11 May 2007 (BST)<br />
<br />
==Alternatives==<br />
May I suggest some time one day widening the 'alternatives' concept. I've seen doors hung with varying degrees of sophistication, from the most basic possible to the full deal, and imho all of these styles are appropriate in some properties - mostly character properties and period properties.<br />
<br />
While it seems popular to be nose in the air about such things, irl they have a perfectly valid place in the art and I think deserve much more mention.<br />
<br />
IIRC the most basic had the door hinges screwed direct into the brickwork, a single stop strip, and no other woodwork, in a large ex-industrial building probably from the 1800s. That one may be taking it to extreme a bit, but even that suited the dickensian industrial character of the place well. I've also seen new work with more minimal woodwork than usual look good and create character.<br />
[[User:NT|NT]] 23:48, 11 May 2007 (BST)<br />
<br />
Yup agree about alternatives, I only present this as one way that works ok if that is the type of result you want. (hence why I did not call the article "The way to hang a door" ;-)<br />
<br />
There is also lots of special case stuff one could add, like doing stable style doors. <br />
<br />
--[[User:John Rumm|John Rumm]] 01:00, 12 May 2007 (BST)<br />
<br />
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<hr />
<div>I've removed some stuff -<br />
<br />
''Where cast iron and steel radiators are mixed in a building, they should be on 2 separate heating zones, since the two have very different thermal behaviour, and using them both on the same circuit usually causes temperature control problems.''<br />
<br />
: Is there any evidence for this statement? I know of installations with both on same circuit with no problems.<br />
<br />
''Cast iron radiators can be repaired using the same methods and materials as used with car engine heads and exhausts.''<br />
<br />
: Maybe, but this article is about designing systems, not repairing them. Maybe it could go in another article e.g. CH operation? I think repairing CI might be an article in itself.<br />
<br />
''Cast iron radiators should always be attached securely to the wall, as their weight could cause serious injury to a child if pulled over.''<br />
<br />
: Incorporated into rewording of article.<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 07:49, 17 January 2008 (GMT)<br />
<br />
==Unfinned rad figures==<br />
On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:58:36 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:<br />
<br />
> In an earlier contribution to this discussion,<br />
> John Stumbles <john.stumbles@ntlworld.com> wrote:<br />
>> What sort of heights were the rads you arrived at your figures for?<br />
> They were all either 24" or 30" high.<br />
...<br />
> ... my complete list - with outputs in Watts/M^2 is:<br />
> <br />
> TYPE Output at Delta-T=60 Output at Delta-T=50<br />
> Single unfinned 1280 1021<br />
> Single finned 2020 1612<br />
> Double unfinned 2170 1732<br />
> Double with single fins 2790 2226<br />
> Double with double fins 3575 2853<br />
><br />
<br />
==Remove 'Under-construction' template==<br />
<br />
I think this is as finished as this article is going to get for the time being.<br />
There was a discussion of the calculation method on the ng. The rest of the material is taken from the existing [[Central Heating Design]] article which did not seem to have received any notable criticism, and its content seems reasonably uncontentious.<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 23:30, 14 February 2008 (GMT)<br />
<br />
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<hr />
<div>== In General ==<br />
I'm aiming for an article that's succinct, informative and to the point.<br />
<br />
For the inexperienced DIYer I've tried to give an idea that there are unexpected dangers and you need to develop a certain attitude to DIY safely.<br />
<br />
Then I've started to assemble some subject-specific cut-to-the-chase guides and hints,<br />
<br />
== still need sections on ==<br />
<br />
* general power tool safety, specifics for <br />
** grinding wheels, <br />
** circular saws, <br />
** chain saws<br />
* safety wrt hot water and steam<br />
* chemicals<br />
* working at heights<br />
* lifting<br />
* excavations<br />
* ...<br />
* lifting (need pictures)<br />
* protective gear<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 10:52, 23 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
== Format ==<br />
<br />
I've used a single '=' as the first layer of the multilevel format here because using == does not give enough layers for the information presented. There is of course more info yet to come.<br />
[[User:NT|NT]] 11:58, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
If we need 5 levels of heading I think something should be split off into an article of its own.<br />
Can we stick to [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Editing mediawiki conventions] on heading levels? <br />
<blockquote><br />
'''Start with 2 equals signs not 1 because 1 creates H1 tags which should be reserved for page title.'''<br />
</blockquote><br />
I don't know why this is but the mediawiki designers probably know more about this wiki engine than we do!<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 08:31, 23 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
----<br />
== FOLLOWING STUFF MOVED OUT OF ARTICLE: ==<br />
<br />
I've moved the following out of the article where they're empty place-holders or need fleshing out (in which case they should go in the to-do list above) or where they don't explain the actual safety issues (e.g. vinegar) or where they aren't about an issue likely to occur in DIY working (e.g. the well-water one - maybe that could go in an article on water supply systems?)<br />
<br />
<blockquote><br />
<br />
=Excavation=<br />
<br />
=Power Tools=<br />
Drill<br />
Circular saw<br />
Chainsaw<br />
Holesaw<br />
Dremel<br />
<br />
=Water=<br />
==Hot Water==<br />
===Hot water tank temperature===<br />
===Showers===<br />
Scalding<br />
===Hot header tanks===<br />
May soften and collapse<br />
==Steam==<br />
==Pressurised water==<br />
(eg pressure washers)<br />
==Infection==<br />
Pigeon in tank etc<br />
<br />
Backfeeding & double check valves<br />
==Wells==<br />
Well water is prone to a wide range of safety issues, and should always be tested before being used as potable water. The need for remedial treatment before consumption is routine.<br />
<br />
<br />
====Patio Cleaner====<br />
<br />
===Toxins===<br />
====Oxalic acid====<br />
<br />
<br />
====Vinegar====<br />
Vinegar is entirely innocent until used, but once it gets onto copper (or any copper alloy) it becomes saturated with copper salts. Copper is actully an essential nutrient in miniscule quantities, but the amounts found in copper cleaning runoff are enough to cause serious problems. Even vinegar can land you in trouble.<br />
<br />
=Screws=<br />
Screwing causes injuries too. See [[Screws]]<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
----<br />
<blockquote><br />
<br />
==Method of lifting==<br />
==Load Limits==<br />
Observe the Safe Working Load limits stamped on the ratings plate on your butt, don't exceed your rated values. This is sometimes difficult to read due to its location, in which case your load rating can be assessed by a doctor or physical therapist. Ratings may vary widely between different models of DIYer, so it is not always wise to make assumptions.<br />
<br />
Exceeding the printed ratings may cause some of the zeros to fall off, leaving the DIYer unable to work. Although this damage can often be repaired by a body shop, the repair process is often long and costly, and in some cases the damage is permanent.<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
Nice one! Sadly, not really right for the article<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 08:31, 23 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
I dont know why youve removed a lot of information about safety, specifically water, chemicals, vinegar, screws, and load limits. it is what the article is about after all. Dont know whats unclear about vinegar either... if you want to reach some kind of concensus it would help to explain.<br />
[[User:NT|NT]] 17:42, 23 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
The bits about vinegar and screws didn't give any explanation how they were hazardous and what you should do about them (not have vinegar on your chips? stick to nails?). The Load Limits bit was facetious and amusing but not practically helpful - I replaced it with something about correct lifting techniques and protective clothing. <br />
<br />
As for the stuff about pigeons in tanks and well water, and support of hot water tanks: I felt it was the wrong sort of safety. I know that sounds daft but I'm not sure how to put it. There's safety in what you're doing, like using a chainsaw or raising a tonne weight or applying caustic paint stripper; and there's safety in how electrical and gas installations are designed and installed, and how water tanks are installed, and potable water supplies arranged. Seems to me they're different and belong in different places. As I mentioned at the start of thsi page I'm trying to make the article succinct - to encourage people to actually read it. If it wanders off into a treatise on well-water processing plant design I think it loses that.<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 21:05, 23 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
This seems a bit inacurate "Drain cleaning chemicals are usually strongs acids or alkalis which are extremely dangerous" given that there are so few deaths from them. Walking up the stairs kills far more people.<br />
[[User:NT|NT]] 17:45, 23 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
Depends what you mean by "dangerous" I suppose. By the same measure nitroglycerine isn't "extremenly dangerous". Far more people walk up & down stairs than handle conc. H2S04 and NaOH: if the same numbers did both activities just as often I think there'd be more casualties from the chemicals.<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 21:05, 23 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
<br />
Re removal etc...<br />
<br />
"The bits about vinegar and screws didn't give any explanation how they were hazardous and what you should do about them (not have vinegar on your chips? stick to nails?)."<br />
<br />
If you left it there any info you thought was missing could be added. If you remove anything you dont think perfect we're wasting our time. If each of us does that there will be nothing left. By all means remove what is by all verifiable accounts invalid and incorrect, as I've done twice, but removing developing valid input is not going to help.<br />
<br />
<blockquote><br />
OK, I didn't ''delete'' it, I moved it here, with a suggestion that the actual hazards should be identified if it's going to be in an article on safety. The text was: <br />
<blockquote><br />
''"Vinegar is entirely innocent until used, but once it gets onto copper (or any copper alloy) it becomes saturated with copper salts. Copper is actully an essential nutrient in miniscule quantities, but the amounts found in copper cleaning runoff are enough to cause serious problems. Even vinegar can land you in trouble."'' <br />
</blockquote><br />
What are the ''"serious problems"''? What ''"trouble"'' can vinegar land you in? I'd really like to know!. (FWIW I've recently cleaned brass - a copper alloy - with vinegar and I'm still here!) --[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 14:25, 24 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
<br />
" The Load Limits bit was facetious and amusing but not practically helpful"<br />
<br />
I thought knowing one's personal load limits was a key component in lifting safety. Or do you think all diyers are in perfect health and equally strong? <br />
<br />
<blockquote> Is it? I don't know mine but I do a fair amount of lifting and shifting and have managed to stay injury-free. I do have some idea when I look at a boiler spec that about 25kg is a one-person lift and I can carry it up a ladder and hang it on a wall, but I can get an old cast-iron boiler up off the ground and into the back of the van and that's maybe twice that weight. I think safe lifting is more down to bending right and feeling what's OK. <br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 14:25, 24 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
DIYers are not the same as professional builders in this respect, and a great toll of damage is done to people every year by folk not knowing and respecting their limits.<br />
<br />
People's lives are too often torn apart when they can no longer work or get around properly. DIY should be done safely, not ignorantly and self destructively. I cant see any possible valid basis for considering this not practically helpful.<br />
<br />
As for humour, dry boring safety advice is much more likely to be read through, thought about and remembered when framed in a humorous way.<br />
<br />
<blockquote><br />
My point was that the jokey piece was amusing but ''not'' practically helpful. If I have a ratings plate stamped on my butt my doctor has never mentioned it and I doubt a "therapist" would be any better placed to do so! Even if I did how would I use that figure? I daresay there's some science that a trained something-or-other can do to assess whether a given person can safely lift a particular weight, size and shape of object through a given path but it's bound to be different for different shapes and sizes and where you're lifting from and to etc as well as just the weight. And even then there's also the factor of whether your muscles are warmed up or stiff - or why would weight lifters bother limbering up before a lift? I certainly don't have the expertise to work something out mathematically (do you?). From a practical POV it seems to me that if you're lifting ''correctly'' you're just going to find you simply ''can't'' lift beyond your capacity than to injure yourself.<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 14:25, 24 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
"- I replaced it with something about correct lifting techniques and protective clothing."<br />
<br />
a good and needed addition, but removing the above clearly removes an important consideration. Many injuries occur from people lifting more weight than they are really able, and the lone diyer without full professional kit, written safety guidance, or any onsite safety expert is especially vulnerable to this. Vulnerable to the extent of 200,000 injuries per year in fact. Personally I'd like to se a few fewer people destroy their lives.<br />
<br />
<blockquote><br />
BTW where does the 200,000 figure come from? Is that 200,000 DIYers injuring themselves lifting beyond their capacity every year?<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 14:25, 24 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
"As for the stuff about pigeons in tanks and well water, and support of hot water tanks: I felt it was the wrong sort of safety. I know that sounds daft but I'm not sure how to put it. There's safety in what you're doing, like using a chainsaw or raising a tonne weight or applying caustic paint stripper; and there's safety in how electrical and gas installations are designed and installed, and how water tanks are installed, and potable water supplies arranged. Seems to me they're different and belong in different places. As I mentioned at the start of thsi page I'm trying to make the article succinct - to encourage people to actually read it."<br />
<br />
The title is safety, so it covers safety. Lots of people after you and me will add safety relevant info here of all kinds. Safety issues exist in every area of diy.<br />
<br />
If you want an article that covers a much more restricted amount of ground, which is a fine idea, then thinking of an appropriate article title would enable it to do just this. Maybe something like 'Key safety advice' 'Biggest safety issues' 'Most important safety points' 'Read me first' 'Danger: DIY' or something.<br />
<br />
Or maybe we could have safety as a category, and the main safety article has links to many other safety articles, the first of which would be a short one addressing the prime issues.<br />
<br />
<blockquote><br />
Safety ''is'' a category. I take your point about the scope of this particular article: I think that could be stated at the outset, pointing the reader in the direction of appropriate material relevant to safety in installations. I don't think the content of the current 'safety' article should be moved into a "safety in doing things" type of article - at least not just now - because you'd end up with a rather short main article containing just a few links which would add another level of link-following to get to ''any'' useful info. From personal experience (and I'm sure I've seen a web usability study somewhere though I can't find it right now) having to hop multiple links to get anywhere useful is a PITA. --[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 14:25, 24 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
"If it wanders off into a treatise on well-water processing plant design I think it loses that."<br />
<br />
No such was discussed. Sarcasm loses the point.<br />
<br />
<blockquote><br />
Sorry if it came across as sarcasm. Though I don't see why we shouldn't have a treatise on well-water processing plant design is someone has the expertise to write one, just trying to keep the main safety article succinct. --[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 14:25, 24 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
<br />
Removing valid safety information from the safety article is not constructive.<br />
[[User:NT|NT]] 08:32, 24 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
Re deletion, I'm quite sure we both know nothing is deleted from wiki, as wiki keeps copies of every version, it is only deleted from the current version of the article page.<br />
<br />
I note you removed relevant info on back injuries, which injure and disable a large number every year, while adding a section on electicity, which during diy activity kills and disables single figures per year.<br />
<br />
Life is too short.<br />
[[User:NT|NT]] 20:33, 2 March 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
<br />
What was the '''relevant info''' on back injuries I removed - you mean the bit about "Safe Working Load limits stamped on the ratings plate on your butt"? Do you find that to be useful info then? By all means put it back in if you do, but please could you add a guide or example of how to apply it because I - as a reader and DIYer - can't see how I would use it. (Whereas I can - and do - use the guidance to lifting in the text and illustration I put in, and I do recognise that it's an issue that needs to be addressed.) <br />
<br />
As for there being few casualties of accidents involving electricity: how many incidents involving chlorine evolved from mixing bog cleaners are there? However since the consequences of such incidents are so severe it seems worth covering them.<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 21:05, 2 March 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
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<hr />
<div>Created article<br />
<br />
Need better pictures and to expand text.<br />
<br />
[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 04:31, 16 December 2006 (GMT)<br />
<br />
== Category DHW or domestic hot water ==<br />
<br />
Maybe we should decide on one name for this category. The category 'Domestic Hot Water Systems' is already in use in several other articles, DHW is not. DHW will be found using the search box, so I'm not sure we need DHW as a category.<br />
<br />
Agreed, but how does one delete a category? I've removed the Category: tag from the one article that referrred to it, and deleted the contents from the category page itself. That seems to have done it (I hope)<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 22:39, 1 January 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
== Introductory section ==<br />
Thanks for the changes NT. I had not considered how this article might appear taken in isolation: it was originally part of my DHW systems article but I split it into its own article since it was so big. I can see that, taken in isolation, it needs a bit of introduction to a user coming straight to it to set the context in which they may be interested in stores & banks.<br />
<br />
Since several of the advantages you list are already covered in the main [[Domestic Hot Water Systems|DHW]] article I have referred the reader to that article instead of trying to re-state things in this one.<br />
<br />
I left out the bits on them being more efficient, having faster recovery etc since these are not true of all such systems and anyway are discussed in detail in the article itself. I'm assuming that if someone wants to understand the technology they'll read the articles in full to do so. If they just want factoids such as 'more efficient' without any real comprehension I'm sure there are plenty of places they can go for them :-)<br />
<br />
I also took out the glossary as I couldn't see its purpose in this article. If the reader reads the article they'll find these terms described as they are used or used with links to further information (in the hypertext way). I can see that someone may come to the wiki wanting to know what, say, the term 'plate heat exchanger' or 'primary water' is. The search function should give them some answers, including uses of these terms in other articles (such as conbi boilers and central heating systems) which they wouldn't get from a glossary in this article alone.<br />
<br />
I can see that a glossary at a higher level (maybe in the main DHW article or possibly the main Heating or even Plumbing sections, or maybe at the top level for the wiki overall) could be useful if someone could put together - and continue to maintain - a comprehensive one. However it seems like an enormous amount of extra work when we've enough to do building the main corpus of the wiki, and if it's not comprehensive I wonder if it's worth doing at all?<br />
<br />
By the way I also changed the heading level of your 'How They Work' section heading to 2 (2 = signs either side). Mediawiki documentation recommends not using level 1 (1 = sign) as that is reserved for the article heading itself.<br />
<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 15:10, 10 January 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
<br />
Hi John. <br />
<br />
I was really surprised to see you thought the article-specific mini glossary a bad idea. I don't have the sort of knowledge of plumbing as many here, and reading thru this article the first thing that stood out clearly was the need for a glossary. There are many terms used in this one that a lot of diyers wont know, and really they won't make head or tail out of it all if the terms arent explained first. I found it hard enough knowing the terms, and having no glossary just makes understanding this article 10x harder for anyone not especially familiar with DHW systems.<br />
<br />
I know what the terms mean, but this is only because I have an interest in almost all things diy and have followed many a thread on it on ukdiy. Most readers will be new to most of this.<br />
<br />
Also there are terms eg for the 2 sets of water that are not universal terms, and thus need definining for this article. <br />
<br />
Saying that these meanings are all mentioned somewhere in the article is not much help because when reading a section one has nothing to refer to to remind oneself what is what. The definitions may be in there somewhere but if I have to reread it all to find a definition every time I want to understand each paragraph its going to be a nightmare trying to understand it all, and all but the masochistic will quickly give up.<br />
<br />
Also I used the primary water definition to explain from the start that the cylinder water was the same circuit as the boiler.<br />
<br />
You're an expert on this. Try to put yourself in the shoes of someone that knows diddly, and this article is almost incomprehensible, simply because it introduces so many concepts and jargons in one bite. Human memory is neither perfect nor instant, and explaining the terms once somewhere in the article just doesnt work. To follow it all one has to have a clear plain list of what they mean that one can refer to each time... otherwise its only of use to those that already understand a lot about the subject.<br />
<br />
Really I think the glossary is key for anyone not already familiar with the subject. Its simply not accessible to 95% of readers otherwise, imho.<br />
<br />
<br />
"If they just want factoids such as 'more efficient' without any real comprehension I'm sure there are plenty of places they can go for them :-)"<br />
<br />
Well, I think thats important too. :) As a reader that (lets pretend a minute) doesnt know what is here nor what I want, all I know is I need a new hot water system, I really have no idea if this article is relevant or of interest to me. And I've not got all month to read eveything on the site. I need to know right off the bat whether this article is worth me reading, and a plain clear list of advantages at the start is exactly what I need for that. No list, no clue whether its all of any relevance. No clue, and a tough going article, and I'm gone, no incentive or willingness to read it.<br />
<br />
Re your point that some advantages dont always apply, that can be dealt with vy splitting the advantages list into 2, advantages first, then optional advantages depending on design 2nd.<br />
<br />
For anyone that doesnt know the subject this article is impossibly tough reading, you need to give them a reason to read it or it'll just stay on the shelf unused, like most scholarly tomes.<br />
<br />
The hardest thing is to put expertise and accessibility together, perhaps because experts dont realise how unclued the rest of the world is. But it can be done.<br />
[[User:NT|NT]] 19:40, 10 January 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
<br />
OK thanks for the feedback.<br />
<br />
Maybe it would help to point out the raison d'etre of this article. So often I've talked to clients about the various choices available to them in hot water systems and after a few minutes I notice their eyes glaze over! It's obviously all too much to take in in one chunk, so I thought I'd better write it up. That's what this attempts to be. So far I've more-or-less brain-dumped the more relevant bits of what I know, so I can understand that it's perhaps a bit much to take in and I really appreciate feedback on how it comes across and how it can be immproved. (I haven't let any of my customers loose on it yet - we'll have to see how they find it too!)<br />
<br />
Regarding your point about the mini-glossary: I prefer the hypertext style (as exampled by wikipedia) of linking non-obvious terms to explanations of their meanings, whether that's links to other places in the same text, other articles in this wiki, or pages elsewhere on the web. I haven't done a lot of that so far, partly because few other resources exist to link to yet and I don't want to have the text littered with [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Red_link red links], but mostly because I haven't got A Round Tuit :-)<br />
<br />
About the executive summary ("a plain clear list of advantages at the start") I think that's a good point, and I've changed the opening paragraph to try to convey that enough to lead the reader on.<br />
<br />
As for the "tough reading ...scholarly tome" aspect, I hope that by explaining the subject clearly it won't be any tougher than it needs to. If it is, that's a failing of my writing which no amount of gloss(ary)ing over will remedy. But I admit I do have a prejudice that DIYers are intelligent and persevering, too! Certainly some of the most worthwhile articles I've come across on the group have been those explaining quite technical subjects in a fair amount of detail.<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 01:26, 11 January 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
I've made a lot of changes to try to improve readability - see diff for them.<br />
In particular I've removed this bit from the 'Recovery' section since it's partly about condensing boilers (and inaccurate in places) and getting into niches which need to be covered in more appropriate extensions of this article.<br />
<br />
excised section follows:<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="2"<br />
|-<br />
|<br />
The temperature of the water returning to a condensing boiler is absolutely critical to whether it can condense or not. Above 56 degrees, condensation is IMPOSSIBLE (Law of Physics - Dewpoint). Different heatstores and heatbanks have the primary Flow and Return connections (to the boiler) in various positions on the store cylinder to achieve different objectives. For example, the boiler Return may be mounted 'high' to allow for the connection of a second (lower temperature) Flow / Return pair lower down for connection to a solar panel system. What benefits the solar system (stratification of the store allowing a useful temperature difference between the solar Flow and the area of the store it's supposed to heat), may also raise the average temperature of the boiler Return above 56C degrees. This will impact the boiler's efficiency.<br />
<br />
In some cases, the effective working temperature of the store may be so high (approaching 80C degrees) that the Return will remain above 56C degrees all the time, so that there is no efficiency gain from using a condensing boiler.<br />
<br />
One design of heatbank includes TWO boiler Return tappings on the cylinder: one part-way down, the other at the bottom. These are linked by a thermostatic mixing valve set slightly below 56 degrees, so that the boiler gets its Return water at optimum temperature most of the time. This allows a condensing, modulating boiler to reduce it's heat output to match what the store actually needs and to remain in condensing mode for as long as possible. <br />
|}<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 15:26, 12 January 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
:This...''In some cases, the effective working temperature of the store may be so high (approaching 80C degrees) that the Return will remain above 56C degrees all the time, so that there is no efficiency gain from using a condensing boiler.''<br />
<br />
Even when set to 80C running temperature condensing boilers condense 80% of reheat time. <br />
<br />
[[User:79.65.91.94|79.65.91.94]] 15:34, 29 April 2009 (BST)<br />
<br />
:This...<br />
<br />
:''Thermal stores and heat banks provide hot water at mains pressure, giving excellent performance from showers and spray mixer taps. They don't require bulky tanks in the attic, which can free up space.'' <br />
<br />
:''"Unvented" (e.g. "Megaflo") systems also give these benefits but their installation has to be notified under Building Regulations and they must be serviced annually for safety, so thermal stores are particularly attractive for DIY-ers.''<br />
<br />
:'''Thermal store/heat banks are not equivallents to DHW only Megaflows.''' A DHW only thermal store or heat bank is. An integrated CH/DHW thermal store heat bank is very differnt and offers much, much more. This must be noted.<br />
<br />
[[User:79.65.91.94|79.65.91.94]] 15:47, 29 April 2009 (BST)<br />
<br />
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<hr />
<div>Maybe would be nice to do as a graph showing where various developments branched off e.g. lightweight heat exchangers from cast iron, combis from heating-only etc?<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 13:57, 21 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
Anybody know when building regs changed obliging non-permanent pilot light designs?<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 16:31, 21 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
Somewhere before the 1/4/2005 upgrade to Part L. <br />
It must have been the inspriation for the retro fitting of electronic ignition to models like the Kingfisher and Mexico.<br />
--[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 20:20, 21 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
A '''long''' time before 1/4/2005! I'm guessing around 20 years ago but it'd be nice to know exactly when. <br />
<br />
Were there 'electronic' versions of the Mexico & Kingfisher? (My Ideal manuals are up in the attic and I cba to dig them out right now.)<br />
I haven't come across many Kingfishers but all the Mexicos I know are permanent-pilot-light types.<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 00:11, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
The ones I'm thinking about were only sold in the few years before 2005 and often sported an 'L' at the end of the model number. <br />
In many cases e.g. Profiles no change was needed so the Profile 80e became the Profile 80eL.<br />
<br />
They were intended to be direct replacements for the original dinosaur types but some lost the thermocouple. <br />
<br />
ISTR that a few of the back boilers suddenly got electronic ignition also.<br />
--[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 17:39, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
So wasn't there a change of regs that prompted the move from permanent pilot lights? Did it just happen sort of spontaneously? --[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 21:16, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
I think there must have been as the 'L' at the end probably referred to Part-L of the B.Regs. This change was prior to 2005 but not decades before,<br />
There may have been other changes much earlier to cause the introduction of fanned flues. However competition from continental designs and the advantages of more versatile flues might have brought this about without a regs change.<br />
--[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 06:09, 27 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
----<br />
<br />
I think the natural draught flue variants were always available it was just the proportion of installations that shifted away from using a chimney. --[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 20:22, 21 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
I guessed that RS must have come along later and that something like a Pott C70/21 must have been a purely OF design.<br />
Likewise Bermudas (were there ever RS versions?)<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 00:11, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
I've never seen a RS'd BBU the flueing would be nearly impossible. <br />
<br />
I was thinking of installation to outside walls like RS gas fires, though a BBU would obviously need a fairly deep fireplace against the wall to hide it in which would really make it only suitable for (then-) new-build.<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 21:16, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
The Pott. Netaheat was unique in using a heat sensing mecury vapour phial to detect the pilot light.<br />
The are many models which have a two stage ignition with a pilot and main gas valve. --[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 20:38, 21 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
Ahh yes: Wait ...... clunk! I still come across a few of those.<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 00:11, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
Solid kit.<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
I've looked for Potty's latest offering I could not find an installation PDF for the Promax but the specification looks like it a grown up condensing unit. It has low NOx and deep modulation >3:1. These strongly hint that it has a premix burner. A tight inlet pressure spec and no burner pressure spec also suggest this. <br />
... ... OK I found the manual it _is_ a one piece premixing unit but it is also _upfiring_ (another one to avoid fitting). <br />
<br />
--[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 17:39, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
I had an idea there was one called an HE 30. Baxi were also showing both a new generation and ye olde two-heat-exchanger offerings (with some pure weasel spin on why that was a good feature!) at a trade show at the local footy stadium last year. I didn't pay much attention as I was in a hurry to get to the Worcester and Vaillant stands :-)<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 21:16, 22 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
I've checked Poxi's offerings and they have an odd mix of contemporary designs with side-blown combustion chambers, and some that look like the missing link between secondary heat exchanger types and single hx types: they have a single hx but it's a cuboid box with an upward-firing burner. <br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 22:13, 26 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
== Table of Boiler Info ==<br />
<br />
Thinking of doing a table of all* boilers and what features they have e.g.<br />
<br />
<br />
{| border=1; cellpadding=2<br />
! Manufacturer<br />
! Range<br />
! Models<br />
! Evolution<br />
! Config<br />
! Details<br />
|-<br />
| rowspan=9|Worcester / Worcester-Bosch<br>[http://www.bpindex.co.uk/manf.html?id=6549 range info]<br />
| i<br />
| 24, 28<br />
| SE, direct ignition<br />
| combi<br />
|<br />
* Alloy HX<br />
* combined HX, paddle flow switch<br />
* [http://napt.tlblearningpoint.com/dbdocs/worcester28irsfinstalguide.pdf_tcc_22-07-04.pdf manual]<br />
|-<br />
| CBi<br />
|<br />
* 9-14 CBi<br />
* 14-19 CBi<br />
* 19-24 CBi<br />
| SE (SEDBUK D), direct ignition<br />
| heating<br />
| <br />
* CI HX<br />
* [http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/index.php?fuseaction=site.viewFile&id=9875 manual]<br />
|-<br />
| Si II<br />
| 24, 28<br />
| SE (SEDBUK D)<br />
| combi<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| COMBI<br />
|<br />
* 240 COMBI<br />
* 280 COMBI<br />
| ?<br />
| combi<br />
| <br />
* cylindrical, non-plate water-water heat exchanger, diaphragm diverter<br />
* [http://www.midnight.karoo.net/WB240/ replacing 240 PRV] with pics<br />
|-<br />
| CDi<br />
|<br />
* 24CDi RSF<br />
* 28CDi RSF<br />
* 35CDi ?<br />
* 35CDi II RSF<br />
| SE, direct ignition<br />
| combi<br />
| <br />
* Alloy HX<br />
* PHE, diaphragm diverter<br />
* [http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/index.php?fuseaction=site.viewFile&id=215523 manual]<br />
|-<br />
| Highflow<br />
| 400 Electronic RSF<br />
| SE (SEDBUK D)<br />
| combi<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| SBi<br />
|<br />
* 15 SBi RSF<br />
* 24 SBi RSF<br />
| SE (SEDBUK D)<br />
| system<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| iJunior<br />
| 24, 28<br />
| SE, direct ignition<br />
| combi<br />
| <br />
* Alloy HX<br />
* combined HX, ? flow switch<br />
* [http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/index.php?fuseaction=site.viewFile&id=9935 manual]<br />
|-<br />
| Greenstar<br />
|<br />
* 30 HE PLUS<br />
* 35 HE PLUS<br />
* 40 HE PLUS<br />
| HE<br />
| combi<br />
| <br />
* <br />
|-<br />
| 26CDi XTRA RSF<br />
|<br />
| HE<br />
| combi<br />
| <br />
* SEDBUK B (secondary HX?)<br />
|-<br />
| mfr<br />
| range<br />
| model<br />
| evo<br />
| Htg/Sys/Combi<br />
| Details<br />
|}<br />
<br />
(*FSVO 'all')<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 22:13, 26 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
--this would be full time job <br />
--[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 06:09, 27 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
True but if one just covered the dozen or two most popular models it would be worth having.<br />
<br />
I'm also thinking we need something separate for current HE models from older models<br />
* for old models a sort of Observer's Guide To Boilers would be useful so when a poster (or customer) says "boiler" we can (help them to) identify it and its salient features<br />
* for current models a guide to what model has what features from the pov of choosing one, e.g. knowing that a Potterton Promax Combi or System HE plus is ''completely'' different from a Potterton Promax HE plus Heating model<br />
<br />
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 14:34, 27 February 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
=== Current HE models ===<br />
{| border=1; cellpadding=2<br />
! Manufacturer<br />
! Range<br />
! Models<br />
! Config<br />
! SEDBUK<br />
! W * H * D<br />
! Details<br />
|-<br />
| rowspan=8|Ideal<br />
| Icos HE<br />
| ?<br />
| heating<br />
| A<br />
|<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
| Icos System HE<br />
| ?<br />
| system<br />
| A<br />
|<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| Isar HE<br />
| HE24, HE30, HE35<br />
| combi<br />
| A<br />
| 390*687*278<br />
| Very compact wall mounting boiler<br />
* Downward firing Si coated Ali heat exchanger.<br />
* DHW Preheat<br />
* DHW Temperature Control<br />
* Fully condensing in DHW and CH modes<br />
6m Flue extension available (max 3m on HE35)<br />
|-<br />
| Istor HE<br />
| ?<br />
| storage<br />
| A<br />
|<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| Mini HE<br />
| ?<br />
| combi<br />
| B<br />
|<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| Mexico HE<br />
| ?<br />
| ?<br />
| B<br />
|<br />
| <br />
* floor-standing<br />
|-<br />
| Classic HE<br />
| ?<br />
| heating<br />
| B<br />
|<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| Excel HE<br />
| ?<br />
| combi<br />
| B<br />
|<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| rowspan=3|Potterton<br />
| Gold<br />
| <br />
* Combi 24HE<br />
* Combi 28HE<br />
* Combi 33HE<br />
| combi<br />
| A<br />
| 450*780*345<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
| rowspan=2| Promax<br />
|<br />
* 15 HE<br />
* 24 HE<br />
| heating<br />
| A<br />
| 390*600*320<br />
| <br />
* upward-firing burner<br />
* sealed or vented<br />
* bypass not required - all TRV system OK<br />
* 15 HE "not suitable for fittng with thermal store"<br />
|-<br />
| FSB 30 HE<br />
| heating<br />
| A<br />
| 390*850*520<br />
| <br />
* floor-standing<br />
* upward-firing burner<br />
* built-in condensate pump<br />
* rear/side/top flue<br />
|-<br />
| rowspan=8|Worcester-Bosch<br />
| rowspan=4|Greenstar<br>''(i range using "WB3" heat exchanger<br>1-man lift c. 27kg)''<br />
| <br />
* 24i Junior<br />
* 28i Junior<br />
| combi<br />
| A<br />
| 400*700*330<br />
|<br />
* DHW pre-heat<br />
|-<br />
| <br />
* 12i System<br />
* 24i System<br />
| system<br />
| A<br />
| 400*700*330<br />
|<br />
* non-combi version of i Junior<br />
|-<br />
| <br />
* 12Ri<br />
* 15Ri<br />
* 18Ri<br />
* 24Ri<br />
| heating<br />
| A<br />
| 390*590*270<br />
|<br />
* non-system version of i System in smaller package<br />
|-<br />
|<br />
* 25Si<br />
* 30Si<br />
| combi<br />
| A<br />
| 400*700*330<br />
|<br />
* DHW pre-heat<br />
* DHW temperature control<br />
* ''(same as i Junior plus DHW temp control?)''<br />
|-<br />
| rowspan=4|Greenstar<br>''(CDi range using "WB5" heat exchanger<br>c. 49kg lift weight)''<br />
|<br />
* 25CDi<br />
* 30CDi<br />
* 35CDi<br />
* 40CDi<br />
| combi<br />
| A<br />
| 440*750*360<br />
|<br />
* claims "fully condensing" in CH and DHW modes<br />
* modulating circulating pump<br />
* DHW pre-heat<br />
* DHW temperature control<br />
* built-in filling link standard<br />
|-<br />
| <br />
* 30CDi System<br />
| system<br />
| A<br />
| 440*750*360<br />
|<br />
* system version of CDi combis?<br />
|-<br />
| <br />
* 30CDi conventional<br />
* 40CDi conventional<br />
| heating<br />
| A<br />
| 440*750*360<br />
|<br />
* heating versions of CDi combis?<br />
|-<br />
| Highflow 440<br />
| combi<br />
| A<br />
| 600*850*625<br />
|<br />
* floor-standing<br />
* side/top (rear?) flue<br />
* built-in condensate pump<br />
* built-in filling link standard<br />
|-<br />
| mfr<br />
| range<br />
| model<br />
| config<br />
| sedbuk<br />
| w * h * d<br />
| details<br />
|}<br />
<br />
==Early boilers==<br />
I very occasionally still see 1930s gas boilers in use. I guess this is what you mean by non-electric. The exhaust gas outlet, a hole in the top, is not connected to the flue on these. This is the big visual feature. Instead the (usually asbestos) flue sits above and separate to the boiler, with a short cone on it. I don't know if there is any no pilot light monitoring, I dont see how they'd do it, unless perhaps with a bimetal actuated valve?<br />
<br />
Which heading do these come under?<br />
[[User:NT|NT]] 09:48, 30 April 2007 (BST)<br />
<br />
Non-electric (aka Jurassic :-)).<br />
<br />
If you could get some pictures and/or any more detailed information/description I'd be interested (from an online museum point of view!) --[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 20:30, 30 April 2007 (BST)<br />
<br />
If I ever do I'll let you know, but its not in situations where I take a camera, so I'm doubtful.<br />
[[User:NT|NT]] 23:27, 30 April 2007 (BST)<br />
<br />
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