Difference between revisions of "Talk:Boiler Evolution"

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uqpL0R  <a href="http://quqjzntedsal.com/">quqjzntedsal</a>, [url=http://sbspkgsystmq.com/]sbspkgsystmq[/url], [link=http://kwrwxfwpbhxh.com/]kwrwxfwpbhxh[/link], http://egdueabwlatl.com/
+
Maybe would be nice to do as a graph showing where various developments branched off e.g. lightweight heat exchangers from cast iron, combis from heating-only etc?
  
−
== pAavIELvkGexEx ==
+
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 13:57, 21 February 2007 (GMT)
  
−
DX4JDG <a href="http://dtalntpimtuj.com/">dtalntpimtuj</a>, [url=http://ugjqskjwccud.com/]ugjqskjwccud[/url], [link=http://csecsutjzoec.com/]csecsutjzoec[/link], http://skjqocymobdr.com/
+
----
 +
 
 +
Anybody know when building regs changed obliging non-permanent pilot light designs?
 +
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 16:31, 21 February 2007 (GMT)
 +
 
 +
Somewhere before the 1/4/2005 upgrade to Part L.
 +
It must have been the inspriation for the retro fitting of electronic ignition to models like the Kingfisher and Mexico.
 +
--[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 20:20, 21 February 2007 (GMT)
 +
 
 +
A '''long''' time before 1/4/2005! I'm guessing around 20 years ago but it'd be nice to know exactly when.
 +
 
 +
Were there 'electronic' versions of the Mexico & Kingfisher? (My Ideal manuals are up in the attic and I cba to dig them out right now.)
 +
I haven't come across many Kingfishers but all the Mexicos I know are permanent-pilot-light types.
 +
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 00:11, 22 February 2007 (GMT)
 +
 
 +
The ones I'm thinking about were only sold in the few years before 2005 and often sported an 'L' at the end of the model number.
 +
In many cases e.g. Profiles no change was needed so the Profile 80e became the Profile 80eL.
 +
 
 +
They were intended to  be direct replacements for the original dinosaur types but some lost the thermocouple.
 +
 
 +
ISTR that a few of the back boilers suddenly got electronic ignition also.
 +
--[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 17:39, 22 February 2007 (GMT)
 +
 
 +
So wasn't there a change of regs that prompted the move from permanent pilot lights? Did it just happen sort of spontaneously? --[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 21:16, 22 February 2007 (GMT)
 +
 
 +
I think there must have been as the 'L' at the end probably referred to Part-L of the B.Regs. This change was prior to 2005 but not decades before,
 +
There may have been other changes much earlier to cause the introduction of fanned flues. However competition from continental designs and the advantages of more versatile flues might have brought this about without a regs change.
 +
--[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 06:09, 27 February 2007 (GMT)
 +
----
 +
 
 +
I think the natural draught flue variants were always available it was just the proportion of installations that shifted away from using a chimney. --[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 20:22, 21 February 2007 (GMT)
 +
 
 +
I guessed that RS must have come along later and that something like a Pott C70/21 must have been a purely OF design.
 +
Likewise Bermudas (were there ever RS versions?)
 +
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 00:11, 22 February 2007 (GMT)
 +
 
 +
I've never seen a RS'd BBU the flueing would be nearly impossible.
 +
 
 +
I was thinking of installation to outside walls like RS gas fires, though a BBU would obviously need a fairly deep fireplace against the wall to hide it in which would really make it only suitable for (then-) new-build.
 +
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 21:16, 22 February 2007 (GMT)
 +
 
 +
----
 +
 
 +
The Pott. Netaheat was unique in using a heat sensing mecury vapour phial to detect the pilot light.
 +
The are many models which have a two stage ignition with a pilot and main gas valve. --[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 20:38, 21 February 2007 (GMT)
 +
 
 +
Ahh yes: Wait ...... clunk! I still come across a few of those.
 +
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 00:11, 22 February 2007 (GMT)
 +
Solid kit.
 +
 
 +
----
 +
 
 +
I've looked for Potty's latest offering I could not find an installation PDF for the Promax but the specification looks like it a grown up condensing unit. It has low NOx and deep modulation >3:1. These strongly hint that it has a premix burner. A tight inlet pressure spec and no burner pressure spec also suggest this.  
 +
... ... OK I found the manual it _is_ a one piece premixing unit but it is also _upfiring_ (another one to avoid fitting).
 +
 
 +
--[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 17:39, 22 February 2007 (GMT)
 +
 
 +
I had an idea there was one called an HE 30. Baxi were also showing both a new generation and ye olde two-heat-exchanger offerings (with some pure weasel spin on why that was a good feature!) at a trade show at the local footy stadium last year. I didn't pay much attention as I was in a hurry to get to the Worcester and Vaillant stands :-)
 +
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 21:16, 22 February 2007 (GMT)
 +
 
 +
I've checked Poxi's offerings and they have an odd mix of contemporary designs with side-blown combustion chambers, and some that look like the missing link between secondary heat exchanger types and single hx types: they have a single hx but it's a cuboid box with an upward-firing burner.
 +
 
 +
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 22:13, 26 February 2007 (GMT)
 +
 
 +
== Table of Boiler Info ==
 +
 
 +
Thinking of doing a table of all* boilers and what features they have e.g.
 +
 
 +
 
 +
{| border=1; cellpadding=2
 +
! Manufacturer
 +
! Range
 +
! Models
 +
! Evolution
 +
! Config
 +
! Details
 +
|-
 +
| rowspan=9|Worcester / Worcester-Bosch<br>[http://www.bpindex.co.uk/manf.html?id=6549 range info]
 +
| i
 +
| 24, 28
 +
| SE, direct ignition
 +
| combi
 +
|
 +
* Alloy HX
 +
* combined HX, paddle flow switch
 +
* [http://napt.tlblearningpoint.com/dbdocs/worcester28irsfinstalguide.pdf_tcc_22-07-04.pdf manual]
 +
|-
 +
| CBi
 +
|
 +
* 9-14 CBi
 +
* 14-19 CBi
 +
* 19-24 CBi
 +
| SE (SEDBUK D), direct ignition
 +
| heating
 +
|
 +
* CI HX
 +
* [http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/index.php?fuseaction=site.viewFile&id=9875 manual]
 +
|-
 +
| Si II
 +
| 24, 28
 +
| SE (SEDBUK D)
 +
| combi
 +
|
 +
|-
 +
| COMBI
 +
|
 +
* 240 COMBI
 +
* 280 COMBI
 +
| ?
 +
| combi
 +
|
 +
* cylindrical, non-plate water-water heat exchanger, diaphragm diverter
 +
* [http://www.midnight.karoo.net/WB240/ replacing 240 PRV] with pics
 +
|-
 +
| CDi
 +
|
 +
* 24CDi RSF
 +
* 28CDi RSF
 +
* 35CDi ?
 +
* 35CDi II RSF
 +
| SE, direct ignition
 +
| combi
 +
|
 +
* Alloy HX
 +
* PHE, diaphragm diverter
 +
* [http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/index.php?fuseaction=site.viewFile&id=215523 manual]
 +
|-
 +
| Highflow
 +
| 400 Electronic RSF
 +
| SE (SEDBUK D)
 +
| combi
 +
|
 +
|-
 +
| SBi
 +
|
 +
* 15 SBi RSF
 +
* 24 SBi RSF
 +
| SE (SEDBUK D)
 +
| system
 +
|
 +
|-
 +
| iJunior
 +
| 24, 28
 +
| SE, direct ignition
 +
| combi
 +
|
 +
* Alloy HX
 +
* combined HX, ? flow switch
 +
* [http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/index.php?fuseaction=site.viewFile&id=9935 manual]
 +
|-
 +
| Greenstar
 +
|
 +
* 30 HE PLUS
 +
* 35 HE PLUS
 +
* 40 HE PLUS
 +
| HE
 +
| combi
 +
|
 +
*
 +
|-
 +
| 26CDi XTRA RSF
 +
|
 +
| HE
 +
| combi
 +
|
 +
* SEDBUK B (secondary HX?)
 +
|-
 +
| mfr
 +
| range
 +
| model
 +
| evo
 +
| Htg/Sys/Combi
 +
| Details
 +
|}
 +
 
 +
(*FSVO 'all')
 +
 
 +
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 22:13, 26 February 2007 (GMT)
 +
 
 +
--this would be full time job
 +
--[[User:Makewrite|Makewrite]] 06:09, 27 February 2007 (GMT)
 +
 
 +
True but if one just covered the dozen or two most popular models it would be worth having.
 +
 
 +
I'm also thinking we need something separate for current HE models from older models
 +
* for old models a sort of Observer's Guide To Boilers would be useful so when a poster (or customer) says "boiler" we can (help them to) identify it and its salient features
 +
* for current models a guide to what model has what features from the pov of choosing one, e.g. knowing that a Potterton Promax Combi or System HE plus is ''completely'' different from a Potterton Promax HE plus Heating model
 +
 
 +
--[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 14:34, 27 February 2007 (GMT)
 +
 
 +
=== Current HE models ===
 +
{| border=1; cellpadding=2
 +
! Manufacturer
 +
! Range
 +
! Models
 +
! Config
 +
! SEDBUK
 +
! W * H * D
 +
! Details
 +
|-
 +
| rowspan=8|Ideal
 +
| Icos HE
 +
| ?
 +
| heating
 +
| A
 +
|
 +
|
 +
|-
 +
| Icos System HE
 +
| ?
 +
| system
 +
| A
 +
|
 +
|
 +
|-
 +
| Isar HE
 +
| HE24, HE30, HE35
 +
| combi
 +
| A
 +
| 390*687*278
 +
| Very compact wall mounting boiler
 +
* Downward firing Si coated Ali heat exchanger.
 +
* DHW Preheat
 +
* DHW Temperature Control
 +
* Fully condensing in DHW and CH modes
 +
6m Flue extension available (max 3m on HE35)
 +
|-
 +
| Istor HE
 +
| ?
 +
| storage
 +
| A
 +
|
 +
|
 +
|-
 +
| Mini HE
 +
| ?
 +
| combi
 +
| B
 +
|
 +
|
 +
|-
 +
| Mexico HE
 +
| ?
 +
| ?
 +
| B
 +
|
 +
|
 +
* floor-standing
 +
|-
 +
| Classic HE
 +
| ?
 +
| heating
 +
| B
 +
|
 +
|
 +
|-
 +
| Excel HE
 +
| ?
 +
| combi
 +
| B
 +
|
 +
|
 +
|-
 +
| rowspan=3|Potterton
 +
| Gold
 +
|
 +
* Combi 24HE
 +
* Combi 28HE
 +
* Combi 33HE
 +
| combi
 +
| A
 +
| 450*780*345
 +
|
 +
|-
 +
| rowspan=2| Promax
 +
|
 +
* 15 HE
 +
* 24 HE
 +
| heating
 +
| A
 +
| 390*600*320
 +
|
 +
* upward-firing burner
 +
* sealed or vented
 +
* bypass not required - all TRV system OK
 +
* 15 HE "not suitable for fittng with thermal store"
 +
|-
 +
| FSB 30 HE
 +
| heating
 +
| A
 +
| 390*850*520
 +
|
 +
* floor-standing
 +
* upward-firing burner
 +
* built-in condensate pump
 +
* rear/side/top flue
 +
|-
 +
| rowspan=8|Worcester-Bosch
 +
| rowspan=4|Greenstar<br>''(i range using "WB3" heat exchanger<br>1-man lift c. 27kg)''
 +
|
 +
* 24i Junior
 +
* 28i Junior
 +
| combi
 +
| A
 +
| 400*700*330
 +
|
 +
* DHW pre-heat
 +
|-
 +
|
 +
* 12i System
 +
* 24i System
 +
| system
 +
| A
 +
| 400*700*330
 +
|
 +
* non-combi version of i Junior
 +
|-
 +
|
 +
* 12Ri
 +
* 15Ri
 +
* 18Ri
 +
* 24Ri
 +
| heating
 +
| A
 +
| 390*590*270
 +
|
 +
* non-system version of i System in smaller package
 +
|-
 +
|
 +
* 25Si
 +
* 30Si
 +
| combi
 +
| A
 +
| 400*700*330
 +
|
 +
* DHW pre-heat
 +
* DHW temperature control
 +
* ''(same as i Junior plus DHW temp control?)''
 +
|-
 +
| rowspan=4|Greenstar<br>''(CDi range using "WB5" heat exchanger<br>c. 49kg lift weight)''
 +
|
 +
* 25CDi
 +
* 30CDi
 +
* 35CDi
 +
* 40CDi
 +
| combi
 +
| A
 +
| 440*750*360
 +
|
 +
* claims "fully condensing" in CH and DHW modes
 +
* modulating circulating pump
 +
* DHW pre-heat
 +
* DHW temperature control
 +
* built-in filling link standard
 +
|-
 +
|
 +
* 30CDi System
 +
| system
 +
| A
 +
| 440*750*360
 +
|
 +
* system version of CDi combis?
 +
|-
 +
|
 +
* 30CDi conventional
 +
* 40CDi conventional
 +
| heating
 +
| A
 +
| 440*750*360
 +
|
 +
* heating versions of CDi combis?
 +
|-
 +
| Highflow 440
 +
| combi
 +
| A
 +
| 600*850*625
 +
|
 +
* floor-standing
 +
* side/top (rear?) flue
 +
* built-in condensate pump
 +
* built-in filling link standard
 +
|-
 +
| mfr
 +
| range
 +
| model
 +
| config
 +
| sedbuk
 +
| w * h * d
 +
| details
 +
|}
 +
 
 +
==Early boilers==
 +
I very occasionally still see 1930s gas boilers in use. I guess this is what you mean by non-electric. The exhaust gas outlet, a hole in the top, is not connected to the flue on these. This is the big visual feature. Instead the (usually asbestos) flue sits above and separate to the boiler, with a short cone on it. I don't know if there is any no pilot light monitoring, I dont see how they'd do it, unless perhaps with a bimetal actuated valve?
 +
 
 +
Which heading do these come under?
 +
[[User:NT|NT]] 09:48, 30 April 2007 (BST)
 +
 
 +
Non-electric (aka Jurassic :-)).
 +
 
 +
If you could get some pictures and/or any more detailed information/description I'd be interested (from an online museum point of view!) --[[User:John Stumbles|John Stumbles]] 20:30, 30 April 2007 (BST)
 +
 
 +
If I ever do I'll let you know, but its not in situations where I take a camera, so I'm doubtful.
 +
[[User:NT|NT]] 23:27, 30 April 2007 (BST)
 +
 
 +
...I've not seen one since then
 +
[[User:NT|NT]] 16:19, 21 October 2010 (BST)
 +
 
 +
I've not been back to either of the addresses, and doubt I will now. And by now there's a good chance they're gone.
 +
[[User:NT|NT]] 10:11, 2 February 2012 (GMT)
 +
 
 +
== The "Boiler Evolution" title ==
 +
 
 +
Just a minor point - it would be useful if this item were renamed "Evolution of Gas-fired Boilers". When I first looked at the article, I kept searching up and down for sections on oil-fired devices.
 +
 
 +
Tim Streater - 21st Oct 2010
 +
 
 +
Might be easier to just add a note in the article, or create a new section for ones not covered yet.
 +
[[User:NT|NT]] 16:18, 21 October 2010 (BST)

Latest revision as of 10:11, 2 February 2012

Maybe would be nice to do as a graph showing where various developments branched off e.g. lightweight heat exchangers from cast iron, combis from heating-only etc?

--John Stumbles 13:57, 21 February 2007 (GMT)

Anybody know when building regs changed obliging non-permanent pilot light designs? --John Stumbles 16:31, 21 February 2007 (GMT)

Somewhere before the 1/4/2005 upgrade to Part L. It must have been the inspriation for the retro fitting of electronic ignition to models like the Kingfisher and Mexico. --Makewrite 20:20, 21 February 2007 (GMT)

A long time before 1/4/2005! I'm guessing around 20 years ago but it'd be nice to know exactly when.

Were there 'electronic' versions of the Mexico & Kingfisher? (My Ideal manuals are up in the attic and I cba to dig them out right now.) I haven't come across many Kingfishers but all the Mexicos I know are permanent-pilot-light types. --John Stumbles 00:11, 22 February 2007 (GMT)

The ones I'm thinking about were only sold in the few years before 2005 and often sported an 'L' at the end of the model number. In many cases e.g. Profiles no change was needed so the Profile 80e became the Profile 80eL.

They were intended to be direct replacements for the original dinosaur types but some lost the thermocouple.

ISTR that a few of the back boilers suddenly got electronic ignition also. --Makewrite 17:39, 22 February 2007 (GMT)

So wasn't there a change of regs that prompted the move from permanent pilot lights? Did it just happen sort of spontaneously? --John Stumbles 21:16, 22 February 2007 (GMT)

I think there must have been as the 'L' at the end probably referred to Part-L of the B.Regs. This change was prior to 2005 but not decades before, There may have been other changes much earlier to cause the introduction of fanned flues. However competition from continental designs and the advantages of more versatile flues might have brought this about without a regs change. --Makewrite 06:09, 27 February 2007 (GMT)

I think the natural draught flue variants were always available it was just the proportion of installations that shifted away from using a chimney. --Makewrite 20:22, 21 February 2007 (GMT)

I guessed that RS must have come along later and that something like a Pott C70/21 must have been a purely OF design. Likewise Bermudas (were there ever RS versions?) --John Stumbles 00:11, 22 February 2007 (GMT)

I've never seen a RS'd BBU the flueing would be nearly impossible.

I was thinking of installation to outside walls like RS gas fires, though a BBU would obviously need a fairly deep fireplace against the wall to hide it in which would really make it only suitable for (then-) new-build. --John Stumbles 21:16, 22 February 2007 (GMT)

The Pott. Netaheat was unique in using a heat sensing mecury vapour phial to detect the pilot light. The are many models which have a two stage ignition with a pilot and main gas valve. --Makewrite 20:38, 21 February 2007 (GMT)

Ahh yes: Wait ...... clunk! I still come across a few of those. --John Stumbles 00:11, 22 February 2007 (GMT) Solid kit.

I've looked for Potty's latest offering I could not find an installation PDF for the Promax but the specification looks like it a grown up condensing unit. It has low NOx and deep modulation >3:1. These strongly hint that it has a premix burner. A tight inlet pressure spec and no burner pressure spec also suggest this. ... ... OK I found the manual it _is_ a one piece premixing unit but it is also _upfiring_ (another one to avoid fitting).

--Makewrite 17:39, 22 February 2007 (GMT)

I had an idea there was one called an HE 30. Baxi were also showing both a new generation and ye olde two-heat-exchanger offerings (with some pure weasel spin on why that was a good feature!) at a trade show at the local footy stadium last year. I didn't pay much attention as I was in a hurry to get to the Worcester and Vaillant stands :-) --John Stumbles 21:16, 22 February 2007 (GMT)

I've checked Poxi's offerings and they have an odd mix of contemporary designs with side-blown combustion chambers, and some that look like the missing link between secondary heat exchanger types and single hx types: they have a single hx but it's a cuboid box with an upward-firing burner.

--John Stumbles 22:13, 26 February 2007 (GMT)

Table of Boiler Info

Thinking of doing a table of all* boilers and what features they have e.g.


Manufacturer Range Models Evolution Config Details
Worcester / Worcester-Bosch
range info 		i 24, 28 SE, direct ignition combi
  • Alloy HX
  • combined HX, paddle flow switch
  • manual
CBi
  • 9-14 CBi
  • 14-19 CBi
  • 19-24 CBi
 SE (SEDBUK D), direct ignition heating
Si II 24, 28 SE (SEDBUK D) combi
COMBI
  • 240 COMBI
  • 280 COMBI
 ? combi
  • cylindrical, non-plate water-water heat exchanger, diaphragm diverter
  • replacing 240 PRV with pics
CDi
  • 24CDi RSF
  • 28CDi RSF
  • 35CDi ?
  • 35CDi II RSF
 SE, direct ignition combi
  • Alloy HX
  • PHE, diaphragm diverter
  • manual
Highflow 400 Electronic RSF SE (SEDBUK D) combi
SBi
  • 15 SBi RSF
  • 24 SBi RSF
 SE (SEDBUK D) system
iJunior 24, 28 SE, direct ignition combi
  • Alloy HX
  • combined HX, ? flow switch
  • manual
Greenstar
  • 30 HE PLUS
  • 35 HE PLUS
  • 40 HE PLUS
 HE combi
26CDi XTRA RSF HE combi
  • SEDBUK B (secondary HX?)
mfr range model evo Htg/Sys/Combi Details

(*FSVO 'all')

--John Stumbles 22:13, 26 February 2007 (GMT)

--this would be full time job --Makewrite 06:09, 27 February 2007 (GMT)

True but if one just covered the dozen or two most popular models it would be worth having.

I'm also thinking we need something separate for current HE models from older models

  • for old models a sort of Observer's Guide To Boilers would be useful so when a poster (or customer) says "boiler" we can (help them to) identify it and its salient features
  • for current models a guide to what model has what features from the pov of choosing one, e.g. knowing that a Potterton Promax Combi or System HE plus is completely different from a Potterton Promax HE plus Heating model

--John Stumbles 14:34, 27 February 2007 (GMT)

Current HE models

Manufacturer Range Models Config SEDBUK W * H * D Details
Ideal Icos HE ? heating A
Icos System HE ? system A
Isar HE HE24, HE30, HE35 combi A 390*687*278 Very compact wall mounting boiler
  • Downward firing Si coated Ali heat exchanger.
  • DHW Preheat
  • DHW Temperature Control
  • Fully condensing in DHW and CH modes

6m Flue extension available (max 3m on HE35)

Istor HE ? storage A
Mini HE ? combi B
Mexico HE ? ? B
  • floor-standing
Classic HE ? heating B
Excel HE ? combi B
Potterton Gold
  • Combi 24HE
  • Combi 28HE
  • Combi 33HE
 combi A 450*780*345
Promax
  • 15 HE
  • 24 HE
 heating A 390*600*320
  • upward-firing burner
  • sealed or vented
  • bypass not required - all TRV system OK
  • 15 HE "not suitable for fittng with thermal store"
FSB 30 HE heating A 390*850*520
  • floor-standing
  • upward-firing burner
  • built-in condensate pump
  • rear/side/top flue
Worcester-Bosch Greenstar
(i range using "WB3" heat exchanger
1-man lift c. 27kg)
  • 24i Junior
  • 28i Junior
 combi A 400*700*330
  • DHW pre-heat
  • 12i System
  • 24i System
 system A 400*700*330
  • non-combi version of i Junior
  • 12Ri
  • 15Ri
  • 18Ri
  • 24Ri
 heating A 390*590*270
  • non-system version of i System in smaller package
  • 25Si
  • 30Si
 combi A 400*700*330
  • DHW pre-heat
  • DHW temperature control
  • (same as i Junior plus DHW temp control?)
Greenstar
(CDi range using "WB5" heat exchanger
c. 49kg lift weight)
  • 25CDi
  • 30CDi
  • 35CDi
  • 40CDi
 combi A 440*750*360
  • claims "fully condensing" in CH and DHW modes
  • modulating circulating pump
  • DHW pre-heat
  • DHW temperature control
  • built-in filling link standard
  • 30CDi System
 system A 440*750*360
  • system version of CDi combis?
  • 30CDi conventional
  • 40CDi conventional
 heating A 440*750*360
  • heating versions of CDi combis?
Highflow 440 combi A 600*850*625
  • floor-standing
  • side/top (rear?) flue
  • built-in condensate pump
  • built-in filling link standard
mfr range model config sedbuk w * h * d details

Early boilers

I very occasionally still see 1930s gas boilers in use. I guess this is what you mean by non-electric. The exhaust gas outlet, a hole in the top, is not connected to the flue on these. This is the big visual feature. Instead the (usually asbestos) flue sits above and separate to the boiler, with a short cone on it. I don't know if there is any no pilot light monitoring, I dont see how they'd do it, unless perhaps with a bimetal actuated valve?

Which heading do these come under? NT 09:48, 30 April 2007 (BST)

Non-electric (aka Jurassic :-)).

If you could get some pictures and/or any more detailed information/description I'd be interested (from an online museum point of view!) --John Stumbles 20:30, 30 April 2007 (BST)

If I ever do I'll let you know, but its not in situations where I take a camera, so I'm doubtful. NT 23:27, 30 April 2007 (BST)

...I've not seen one since then NT 16:19, 21 October 2010 (BST)

I've not been back to either of the addresses, and doubt I will now. And by now there's a good chance they're gone. NT 10:11, 2 February 2012 (GMT)

The "Boiler Evolution" title

Just a minor point - it would be useful if this item were renamed "Evolution of Gas-fired Boilers". When I first looked at the article, I kept searching up and down for sections on oil-fired devices.

Tim Streater - 21st Oct 2010

Might be easier to just add a note in the article, or create a new section for ones not covered yet. NT 16:18, 21 October 2010 (BST)

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