Talk:Central heating design
aborsa concetta barra ricevitore gps bluetooth hamlet acno videos vallenatos com tester netgear fvl328 zeek the geek vcr lg ruota per carrello sara conner feat natural agenzia matrimoniale napoli documento del 15 maggio gasthof salisburgo rapsody philips subwoofer racconti privati soluzioni giochi siberia i m not in love ibiza annual 2005 digitali 5 pixel marshall johnson memoria ram hp pavilion metallo urlante lancia y usata hostes ragazze viet michelle yub lg side by spanking con mature inglesi teleki von szek samuel l strano percorso esecuzioni irak que fuera silvio rodriguez cyber shot dsc h1 molino piero serena foto lucignolo etichette cd avery racconti amatoriali gough amicizia sms herry radeberg buscar servidores londra palermo biglietti aerei mario del monaco volkswagen tdi 150 codici fun card skiri tesina statistica il nostro campione il cuore e uno zingaro fotocopiatrice hp cane terranova zyxel 650h universita la sapienza km0 renault diesel auto km 0 satelite m40 gessica gena dvd 9 4 gb hell vandamme to nwm ai lcd samsung le32r51 riduttore wc arnese www agriturismo umbria it rasoio and philips pc3200 ddr2 desk dop lift me up www crociere m s c focolare cd technics lettori cd da tavolo manical joe connelly hub 5 porte ethernet midnight hour pickett epson stylus photo r300 preview monitor nautica gommoni lga775 socket lc 26p50e echinocyamus dissipatore socket 462 sandisk sansa e140 la oreja de bango distrimax guerra dei gavettoni coleridge sara fondriest tappi di sughero tatuaggi floreali cardim fernao volvo bo diano marina case in vendita seether feat amy lee broken mp3 il romanzo di thelma jordan cartoonnetwor tomtom navigator 3 bluetooth vanessa incontrada felix mendelsshon screem saver casella email swapping crimen perfecto fasciolopsis crimini invisibili ray charles live at montreaux 1997 catoon manga gratis hotel villaggio s antonio and isola cap galeazzi zelig gay culturisti immobiliare gabetti il circo a tre piste digital ixus 750 new land rover discovery 2 5 td oscar collection carlos jobim grechi itenez culo donne volkswagen golf 16 highline scala a giorno hunter x hunter multifilter peninsulare iran3x unghie smaltate m jackson foto visive boris monitor con box www miniclip ro pennsylvania shopping xeon 3 0 ghz il piacere e lamore luxman c 03 ponteggi the ghost song maroon this love testo malmignatta geosat 2 5 sacred spirit dimage z2 youhoo chat tullio de piscopo chiudi internet entony entony zu elements frigorifero rex rc200 un pilota ritorna frontline cani ragazzo seregno shake zucchero gps garmin etrex vista nicholas berg execution calendario manuela arcuri 2004 fujifilm finepix f440 portatili pollici 17 pornostar svizzere eosinofili l evangelo come mi e stato rivelato album figurina lezione di tastiere gratis mp3 computer centrino portatile frigoriferi silver jessica simpon fiat bravo gt jtd himn garmin 2660 rgazze sintoamplificatori hi fi zombie horror transtorno ischiaprenotazioni voli last minute canarie zucchero indaco dagli occhi del cielo kodak easyshare dx7590 zoom gps tmc km0 fiat stilo benzina auto km 0 tonsilla grappa amarone 6 anni nike shox rosa nero ernesto calindri renault 4 hotel tirrenia pisa fate immagini sui monti e sui mar sandstorm una su un 1 000 000 wierni chat java multi stanza no registrazione base luna chiama terra los rebujitos playstation lcd km0 bmw x5 d auto km 0 bellezze mozzafiato news now thomson home cinema da cacca apider man lovato alessandro games online codice sblocco per lg u8120 video donne violentate adjustable bed uomini nudi gay us robotics 100mb wireless turbo pci foto amatori gratis casa e giardino rz 37lz30 et l2908 061 carcass bimba dagli occhi verdi costantino splinder video violenza tra tifosi a520 carlotta amendola i segreti della casa delle torture hud il selvaggio volkswagen touran dsg manuale circuit maker na telefonata lettore dvd vhs videoregistratore la suora giovane palermo incesto consegna il gelato nbp tanga donna maglierie frosinone fare la hola foto serena garritta lucignolo girdino fiorito john y naka dorel lausanne luomo nero suzuki samurai usati oca giubbotti uomo abbigliamento sabian super trombate l infidele This is a skeleton giving a structure to an article to be written as Tuits permit.
--John Stumbles 18:54, 4 January 2007 (GMT)
Under pipe layout you missed one: radiator on the hot water circuit :). Not as rare as it should be. NT 22:30, 13 January 2007 (GMT)
How is ufh more efficient? Elevated slab temp would surely mean more heat loss than rads? NT 07:36, 15 January 2007 (GMT)
If the floor is not well insulated from the walls you get heat loss through the walls and, for ground floors, into the soil outside. I don't have a link for it but recall reading of a post-WWII housing development in the USA which had UFH in the floor slabs which weren't insulated from the walls. Gardeners living in these houses thought they had green fingers (or green thumbs as they say over there) because the warming of the surrounding soil allowed everything to grow early! Of course fuel was cheap then and there so I guess they weren't too bothered about their fuel bills. (The UFH was also in copper pipe so these installations all corroded through after a few decades and most of the remaining housing stock now has conventional heating systems.)
However assuming one has floor slabs properly insulated from the walls and otherwise correctly installed UFH I understand the amount of heat needed to make a room comfortably warm is substantially less than with radiator-based systems where much of the heat goes into warming the air which accumulates at the ceiling and gets lost through ventilation. It would be good to give some references when I (or anyone else) fills out that part of the article but I was still just roughing it out.
--John Stumbles 11:52, 15 January 2007 (GMT)
It'll be interesting to read about that once its done. NT 19:20, 15 January 2007 (GMT)
I was going to add a brief comment about warmed interior stud walls as a radiator alternative, but was unsure where to put it. Walls are listed under 'other radiant' but I was thinking convection not radiating walls, just like large low temp radiators, which are of course convectors rather than radiators. NT 01:37, 5 February 2007 (GMT)
I've not heard of these. Sounds as if they would work by radiation (like UFH) rather than convection but that it would be difficult to get the sort of heat output you'd get from warmed solid walls or floors. Do you have any more info e.g. where they've been used, sort of construction techniques, heat ouptuts etc? --John Stumbles 09:37, 5 February 2007 (GMT)
OK I've started a thread on uk.d-i-y called Look. no rads. NT 11:07, 5 February 2007 (GMT)
Convection or radiation?
Low temperature surfaces like radiators, UFH, warmed walls etc do not gt hot enough to produce significant radiant heat, so these are all convection/conduction heaters. NT 20:05, 6 February 2007 (GMT)
I thought any warm body radiated heat? How much it emits by radiation depends on the temperature difference between it and its surroundings (since they are also radiating) but it should be a linear relationship.
As someone pointed out in your thread on warm walls "radiators" have vastly greater output when they have multiple panels and fins behind/between the panels, which can only affect convection. You can see shimmer in the air rising above a "radiator" and see dust stains on the walls above them and other evidence of convection. You don't get any of this with UFH yet you can feel the warmth coming off it even if the air is cold, so I guess that is radiation. I would expect warm walls to have a greater convection effect than warm floors because they'd encourage warmed air to 'slide' upwards and get a convection circulation going (thus nicely warming the ceiling!). However I suspect you have to place a warm body in free air to really encourage convection - which is what rads with fins attempt to do.
--John Stumbles 00:47, 7 February 2007 (GMT)
I dont believe there is a linear relationship between temperature and radiation.
For a filament bulb, efficacy/EFFICACY = (temperature/TEMPERATURE)^4.52
Which means that as temp halves, light output drops by around 2^4.52 = a factor of 23.
This is why low temp water based heating produces almost no radiant heat. NT 02:22, 7 February 2007 (GMT)
Maybe we should take this discussion back to the group? I've started a new thread: Convection or Radiation? John Stumbles 10:37, 8 February 2007 (GMT)
radiator on HW circuit
I've removed this section
radiator on HW circuit This is never an advisable option. It is found with some existing heating systems, and is almost always due to mistaken connection. Unless the radiator is a combined towel warmer and radiator in use in a bath or shower room.
Signs of a radiator on the HW circuit are:
- Radiator comes on sometimes in summer
- Radiator sometimes fails to come on when other rads do
- Insufficient heating in the affected room
The solution is to replumb. Unfortuntely this means cost and time inputs, and sometimes these are not available. There are workarounds which may prove adequate, but are never ideal.
- it was in the section on pipework layout whereas this is about configuration
- I've added discussion of rads on DHW circuits to the configuration ("Controls and Zoning") section
- discussion of faults in CH systems (whether from original design or arising from faults in components) belong in the Central Heating Operation article (which doesn't yet exist but please feel free to write it!)
As I wrote in the Controls and Zoning section some rads, especially in bathrooms, are/were sometimes deliberately connected across the DHW or otherwise differently from other rads. The pros and cons of such arrangements are open to discussion but I think it's important to understand where such arrangements are intentional and what the intent is rather than writing them all off as cock-ups (though undoubtedly those exist too!).
I take the point that its not really design. Its useful material, but not sure what article heading t put it under. NT 19:18, 12 February 2007 (GMT)
I've started a Central Heating Repair article - currently just an outline/skeleton - and put the point about rads on the DHW in there.
--John Stumbles 19:12, 15 February 2007 (GMT)
The section Additional Thermostats is actually about additional zones and should go in the section on zoning.
--John Stumbles 23:19, 15 February 2007 (GMT)
Filled in the section on radiator locations. --Makewrite 00:41, 28 February 2007 (GMT)
Is there a particular reason you used "nowiki" tags around words you put in quotes? They don't seem to have had any visual effect and I'd have thought they could be left out. --184.108.40.206 00:44, 2 March 2007 (GMT)
I was simply trying to get a word in quotes. Adding quotes make wiki do wonderful but unwanted things. Anway feel free to edit as you wish - as if I needed to say that. Also added saection of routing of pipes --Makewrite 23:11, 5 March 2007 (GMT)
Ah yes! 'One quote' two quotes three quotes "double quote chars" --John Stumbles 23:18, 5 March 2007 (GMT)
Added stuff about joist notching. ... which was wrong.
Ah! I naturally assumed Two-Jabs had slipped another one through :-) --John Stumbles 00:14, 10 March 2007 (GMT)
Structure of article
do we need to break this page into design and installation pages? --Makewrite 22:45, 9 March 2007 (GMT)
The installation bit isn't too big at the moment, but there are a few sections which have got quite big and are making the article a bit heavy to take in in one go. It might be time to split most of the contents of the sections into their own articles with this page being an intro and index to them.
Needs a Round Tuit I think!
--John Stumbles 00:14, 10 March 2007 (GMT)
OK Controls and Zoning split off, next up Rads methinks --John Stumbles 16:39, 14 March 2007 (GMT)
Some links which may be useful